Sneak Attacks on Rays

[LokiDR]

First, I would like to say to Eccles that I am glad you are thinking about the game, rather than blindly following the rules. In this case, I think the reasoning you were looking for comes from the Jester. A frozen cod piece could really chafe

Next, I would like to ask why Ray of Enervation does an "enhancement penalty"? It was my understanding that low level effects did attribute damage, and high level effects did energy drain. This enhancement penalty sounds more like the inverse of bulls strength. Does that mean that a first level spell that gives a tempeary, ranged strength enhancement of 1d6+1 per level as a first level spell is viable? This does not make sense to me. Are there any other spells the give an "enhancement penalty" in this way? I could guess lesser geas, but I don't know.

 

[Ristamar]

Are there any other spells the give an "enhancement penalty" in this way? I could guess lesser geas, but I don't know.

Bestow Curse is the only one I can think of...

 

[kreynolds]

Next, I would like to ask why Ray of Enervation does an "enhancement penalty"?

Uhmmm...it doesn't.

 

[dcollins]

The premise for a sneak attack is that you have to hit a vital area.
The premise for a touch attack of any sort is that you can hit their shield rim, and it'll still take full effect.
No way is a sneak attack going to have effect unless it's managed to miss the armour, is my logic.

Perhaps the following may be helpful, and I don't believe it's been clearly stated previously.

* Let's say you're making a "normal" ranged sneak attack (with bow, thrown dagger, etc.) against someone with no armor (AC 10). Is your chance to hit any worse than if you were making a regular, non-sneak, ranged attack against that person? No -- there's no actual in-game attack penalty, even though allegedly you're trying to hit a more limited vital region on the target.

* Magic touch attacks, in-game, simply go through armor as if it wasn't there. Therefore, from the point of view of a magic ray, every target is effectively presenting itself without any armor -- and hence your chance to score a sneak attack with a ray should be exactly the same as in the case above, i.e., with no penalty over the base AC 10 to hit.

In short: no form of sneak attack has any added attack penalty over the normal attack chances. There's no reason for magic rays to "avoid" armor, because it goes right through it (ignores it), just like there's no penalty for a normal sneak attack needing to "avoid" allegedly non-vital areas on the target.

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Footnote: Here's a little bit more comment on the claim that rays can "hit their shield rim", which is not actually implied by the rules. In fact, if that were so, it would actually connote a larger hit region than if a target had no shield, which isn't the case because no such bonus is given. Rather, what is the case is that (again) touch attacks go through armor as if it wasn't there.

Example 1: Hit the outer rim of the shield? That should be considered a possible result when you roll a touch attack miss -- the ray clearly missed the person, and would have regardless of whether they had a shield or not (by the nature of a ray touch attack).

Example 2: Hit the inner or center part of the shield? Then, yes, that's represented by a touch attack hit -- the ray went through the shield in a place where the person was behind it to take the attack. It's not that damage is conducted through a person's armor, it's that the ray itself simply "ignores" (the critical word) the armor.

Maybe that's helpful for visualization purposes.

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

When you are attacking someone, you are hitting what you can, when you can. A hit could be a stubbed toe to a slashed arm. A lucky blow is a crit, the poor man's sneak attack, hitting something vital, or just extra hard. A sneak attack puts it in the right place every time. Think of it as the middle ground between an attack and a Coup De Grace. Anyone can hit someone, anyone can kill a helpless person who canot react in ANY defensive manner. If you cannot react to a rouge (flat footed), he can hit you where he pleases, if he can get past your armor. With a ranged touch attack, that cannot be deflected by armor, the rouge can put that attack where he likes.

"I'm not sure that any of you are understanding the reasoning behind my question here. A touch attack is something that requires no real skill or subtlety to it, whereas the sneak attack is totally the opposite, a blow to the nerves, jugular, kidneys or whatever."

There is a difference between getting hit with a tazer in the leg, and a tazer in the base of the skull.


"It's an accuracy thing. The main reason a touch attack is easy because it only has to touch any part of the anatomy. The reason a sneak attack is hard is because it has to hit specific parts of the target that are covered by armour."

Since a ray bypasses armor, all you need to worry about is putting it in the right place, not putting it in the right place AND some how slipping it past the steel plates.


"OK, you might chill the armour. And I would happily let you pass on your 1D3 chill damage from your Ray of Frost. But why on earth would the Ray of Frost suddenly be doing the massive damage that sneak attacks can involve without a degree of finesse and skill?"

It takes the skill of a rouge to put it in the right place.


"Great. So now a stat. draining spell potentially does damage, a rogue/mage has a better control over his magic than a straight (and higher caster-level) mage, and I should stop DM'ing."

First, and most important, you should not stop DM'ing. Your asking the question, and putting up with some abrasive comments. That shows interest, which is all you really need.

Secondly, I would consider an Enhancment PENALTY and a level DRAIN to be in the same ball park. Ray of enfeeblement is the one spell I can think of that could have this distiction made about it, so I would be more inclined to let it crit than not, since you can with any other.

Finally, OF COURSE a rouge/wizard is going to have better control of his damage spells, the same way a rouge has better control of a dagger. It's the same princaple.


The point about one spell per round as opposed to multiple arrows is a good one as well. What if your rouge got a hold of some brilliant energy arrows? These would grant him all but a ranged touch attack.

 

[drowdude]

Secondly, I would consider an Enhancment PENALTY and a level DRAIN to be in the same ball park. Ray of enfeeblement is the one spell I can think of that could have this distiction made about it, so I would be more inclined to let it crit than not, since you can with any other.

I know what you are saying here, and even agree with it to a degree... but it actually uses Ray of Enfeeblement as an example of a ranged touch spell that can't crit in Tome & Blood; & no crit equates to no SA.

 

[Will]

Storm Raven nailed it.

I'm running a Rog 7/Ftr 2 in a game, relying on the bow. For a variety of reasons, this game runs rough, so staying out of the frontline is vital.

It was the first 3e game I'd been in, and it was a fun learning process. Well, sorta fun. I was annoyed to discover how hard it was to set up ranged sneak attacks. I inherited a ring of invisibility, which helped significantly.

Along the way, the party picked up a wand of Melf's Acid Arrow. I went through the (I thought) amazing realization... hey! I can sneak attack with it!

Well, yeah. Once a round. I have Rapid Shot, so I can get _3_ sneak attacks with that. And do 1d8 damage, even if I couldn't set up a sneak condition.

Yes, it's cool to bypass armor, but you still have to make a UMD check and you only get one attack. At low levels you only get one attack anyway, but you are also more likely to flub a UMD check.


At least from a balance point of view, hardly seems a big deal. (And I only used Melf wand once or twice before figuring out it was pointless)

 

[drowdude]

(And I only used Melf wand once or twice before figuring out it was pointless)

Unless you are fighting Trolls that is

 

[jontherev]

I still don't see the big deal with letting rays do sneak attack damage. Here's a few reasons why, some of which might've been covered already:

1. Undead.
2.Plant creatures.
3.Other rogues/assassins/barbarians.
4.Blur.
5.Displacement.
6.Can't reach a vital area.
7.Spell Resistance (yeah, that caster level of 1 is gonna be a huge help against a 15th level monk).
8.ANY level of darkness (unless you have darkvision or lowlight vision, or trueseeing, etc.).
9.LIGHT foilage (oops, no sneak attacks in most wooded areas).
10.LIGHT fog (Obscuring Mist, natural fog, etc....totally up to the DM's whim).
11.Foe must be denied dex bonus.
12.Armor of Fortification.
13.I *believe* (don't have ELH, so memory could be foggy) there's some epic feat that gives total immunity to sneak attacks (barring use of True Strike, as it gives the pc concealment).
14.Foe must be crittable.
15.You can do SO MUCH more damage by doing a full attack, and even then you do it more often while flanking in melee...and rogues have low hitpoints typically (and mc'ing as a wizard/sorceror makes this even worse, Toad familiar notwithstanding).
16.See Invisibility.
17.Dispel Magic.
18.The fact that fighters, wizards, sorcerors, and clerics can do much more damage on a more regular basis.
19.Quicker Than the Eye is a neat trick, but doesn't do more damage than a rogue 2-weapon fighter flanking (with invisibility/ring of blinking AND Expert Tactician).

Also, FWIW, Monte Cook has stated on his message boards that 3E was playtested with the ASSUMPTION that rogues could sneak attack 100% of the time...and the game was still balanced. I'm sure I missed some stuff that prevents sneak attacks or makes it not so powerful as it seems on paper. The above is more than enough IMO. But, feel free to expand the list. Peace.

 

[kreynolds]

I still don't see the big deal with letting rays do sneak attack damage. Here's a few reasons why, some of which might've been covered already:

1. Undead.
2.Plant creatures.
3.Other rogues/assassins/barbarians.
4.Blur.
5.Displacement.
6.Can't reach a vital area.
7.Spell Resistance (yeah, that caster level of 1 is gonna be a huge help against a 15th level monk).
8.ANY level of darkness (unless you have darkvision or lowlight vision, or trueseeing, etc.).
9.LIGHT foilage (oops, no sneak attacks in most wooded areas).
10.LIGHT fog (Obscuring Mist, natural fog, etc....totally up to the DM's whim).
11.Foe must be denied dex bonus.
12.Armor of Fortification.
13.I *believe* (don't have ELH, so memory could be foggy) there's some epic feat that gives total immunity to sneak attacks (barring use of True Strike, as it gives the pc concealment).
14.Foe must be crittable.
15.You can do SO MUCH more damage by doing a full attack, and even then you do it more often while flanking in melee...and rogues have low hitpoints typically (and mc'ing as a wizard/sorceror makes this even worse, Toad familiar notwithstanding).
16.See Invisibility.
17.Dispel Magic.
18.The fact that fighters, wizards, sorcerors, and clerics can do much more damage on a more regular basis.
19.Quicker Than the Eye is a neat trick, but doesn't do more damage than a rogue 2-weapon fighter flanking (with invisibility/ring of blinking AND Expert Tactician).

Damn, dude! If that isn't a thread killer, I don't know what is!