Sneaky spell questions - Piratecat's players keep out!

[Piratecat]

Hey Wulf! Am-scray!

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Okay, two questions:

1. A PC is wind walking. Typically, it takes 5 rounds to turn from solid to gaseous, or from gaseous to solid, except at the very beginning of the spell.

a. If a person in gaseous form flew into an anti-magic sphere, they'd immediately turn solid. If they then left the sphere, would they immediately turn gaseous again, or would it take them the normal 30 seconds?

b. What kind of action is it to turn from solid to gaseous, and vice versa? If a standard action, is that action taken only in the first round of five, or every round? Does the changing PC stay solid (or gaseous) until 5 rounds have passed, or do they get progressively more misty (or more solid) as the five rounds progress?

2. Guards and Wards is a spell that allows no saving throw. Is this also true with the suggestion component? It appears so, although spell resistance does apply. That would suggest (ha ha) that anyone passing through the area would be affected by the suggestion, no save! This makes the spell significantly more powerful, but I can't find anything contradicting this interpretation.

Opinions? And thanks!

 

[Pielorinho]

I don't know, but here's how I'd rule it:

* The change from solid to gas or back takes five full rounds. Just as a spell that takes one full round doesn't mean you can move and cast it, just as doffing and donning armor isn't multiple standard actions taken over the course of multiple rounds allowing the donner to take move actions in between strapping on the cuirass and breastplate, you don't get to move around while changing form.
* When entering the antimagic field, the magic making you gaseous was suppressed; as soon as you leave, the magic making you gaseous is no longer suppressed, and you immediately return to your gaseous state.

I could see logic for ruling the opposite way in each case, however; indeed, it might be more fun to rule the other way.

As for guards and wards, this is similar to other spells that have little side-efects in them. Should Control Water, when cast as a Slow spell on a Water Elemental, have neither save nor SR? I think I'd rule that when a spell duplicates the effects of another spell, you use that other spell's save and SR results, with the DC determined by the "parent" spell.

Again, though, this is speculation.
Daniel

 

[Tiberius]

Hmmm... interesting questions. Here's my take:

1a) I would say that the change back to a gaseous state occurred immediately. The language about form changes is in very close proximity to the language regarding the ability to change form, which suggests to me that they are related.

1b) I would say that it is a free action which must be done only on the first round of the change. I view it as simply a decision to make the change, setting into motion a chain reaction which culminates in the form change.

2) Guards and Wards is pretty clear. It is a Saving Throw: None spell, and does not say that the suggestion effect is like the suggestion spell. Thus, I would say no save. It is, after all, a 6th-level spell. It's entitled to be pretty powerful.

-Tiberius

 

[DanMcS]

2) It's duplicating another spell, there should be a saving throw, based on the original spell (probably will), but with the base spell setting the DC, so as a suggestion heightened to 6th level in this case.

 

[green slime]

1. A PC is wind walking. Typically, it takes 5 rounds to turn from solid to gaseous, or from gaseous to solid, except at the very beginning of the spell.

a. If a person in gaseous form flew into an anti-magic sphere, they'd immediately turn solid. If they then left the sphere, would they immediately turn gaseous again, or would it take them the normal 30 seconds?

As the spell is suppressed, as opposed to being dispelled, I’d have them materialize / dematerialize immediately upon entering / exiting the AMF.

b. What kind of action is it to turn from solid to gaseous, and vice versa? If a standard action, is that action taken only in the first round of five, or every round? Does the changing PC stay solid (or gaseous) until 5 rounds have passed, or do they get progressively more misty (or more solid) as the five rounds progress?

Involuntary Free action?

2. Guards and Wards is a spell that allows no saving throw. Is this also true with the suggestion component? It appears so, although spell resistance does apply. That would suggest (ha ha) that anyone passing through the area would be affected by the suggestion, no save! This makes the spell significantly more powerful, but I can't find anything contradicting this interpretation.

As suggestion except as if heightened to 6th level.

 

[shilsen]

I'm with green slime (somehow that sounds so wrong!).

 

[spunky_mutters]

1. I agree with pretty much everyone else. The effect is merely suppressed, so the previous state should be restored immediately after the anti-magic zone is removed (or exited).

I would rule it takes 5 full rounds (adjudicating actions as if you were casting a spell of the same length casting time), with no effect until the end.

2. For guards and wards, by the letter of the spell there should be no save. There is also no description of how to adjudicate any of the spell-like effects (suggestion, magic mouth, gust of wind, and dancing lights) beyound the sr: y or n. Because of the lack of description and italicized text, I would read it as pointing me to the appropriate spells for further information. Thus, I would allow a save for gust and suggestion. For 2 reasons: I think having a 6th level spell with that many effects lasting for that long is pretty strong (granted it's got very limited use, but if you add up the spell levels represented, it's way beyond what you can expect from a level 6 spell (and the webs grow back). Also, I think spells that force players to do things with no save, or make them give them no chance to avoid the effect are no fun (from a player's perspective). They remove the illusion of free choice that players enjoy. This is admittedly firmly in Rule 0 territory by the wording, but I think the lack of description forces you to go the spell description to get information on how to use the effect.

 

[Tar-Edhel]

1. A PC is wind walking. Typically, it takes 5 rounds to turn from solid to gaseous, or from gaseous to solid, except at the very beginning of the spell.

a. If a person in gaseous form flew into an anti-magic sphere, they'd immediately turn solid. If they then left the sphere, would they immediately turn gaseous again, or would it take them the normal 30 seconds?

I'd rule that you become solid upon entering the AMF and must take 5 rounds to become gaseous again.

When you enter, the spell's effect simply stops, no arguing there. But when you get out, you're solid. The spell resumes, true, but the spell already allows you to be solid. Why would it turn you gaseous? How does the spell know that it stopped a round ago because of an AMF?

You get out, you're solid and have a Wind walk spell active. When you're under a wind walk spell and want to go from solid to gaseous, it takes 5 rounds, period.

I am a bit tired and I'm under the impression that I'm not crystal clear here. I hope you guys were able to follow!

 

[Grog]

1. A PC is wind walking. Typically, it takes 5 rounds to turn from solid to gaseous, or from gaseous to solid, except at the very beginning of the spell.

a. If a person in gaseous form flew into an anti-magic sphere, they'd immediately turn solid. If they then left the sphere, would they immediately turn gaseous again, or would it take them the normal 30 seconds?

I would say they'd immediately turn gaseous. Here's my reasoning.

If someone is under the influence of a Polymorph Other spell, when they enter an antimagic field, they would revert to their natural form (because PO has a duration of permanent and not instantenous). If they did not revert back to their polymorphed form upon exiting the field, the spell would have been essentially dispelled by the field - which the spell description specifically says it does not do. I would say the same for Wind Walk - even though the character can change form at will, the same logic would still apply IMO.

That's just my thoughts on the matter. For the record, I pick whichever answer doesn't screw over the Defenders