Sniper Rifles (Snipers in general)

[Tellerve]

Two things...

First, yeah a "cheerleader" for a sniper is maybe odd. However, since snipers oftentimes have spotters. That could be the role that "planner" was doing.

As for 1600 feet with an m-16, yes I think it is certainly likely. In fact a friend of mine in the marines can hit a target in the head with an m-16 at 500 yards without a scope. Not to mention a couple days ago I was watching the history channel and during the civil war there were snipers hitting people at 700, 1000, and even a 1500ish foot shot, with a civil war rifle! Crikies!

So, yeah, I see people getting shot fairly easily from afar. However, one thing I don't like and probably won't allow is double tap or anything else that throws down two bullets. I just don't see how you could aim with precision and double tap or use automatic fire.

Tellerve

 

[Thain]

Semi-Rantish

I just don't see how you could aim with precision and double tap or use automatic fire.

I disagree wholeheartedly, police snipers and SWAT teams are drilled in the "double tap" method. The first bullet is aimed at center of mass -normally the torso- because this is the easiest area to target, and will "stagger" the target. Unfortunatly, a single round to the torso is not always a kill, thus a second round is placed into the vict, er, target's head after the first.

As for automatic fire, are you refering to fully automatic fire, or burst fire? The D20M rules render full-auto as very inacurate; you target a 10' x 10' area, and can only hit everything in it once. If your refering to burstfire, I'm afraid there are a number of very acurate burstfire weapons on the market. Most are /not/ designed or intended as sniper rifles, but I'm certain if a Marine Corps Scout Sniper was forced to use a P90 or M16A2 that he'd make a pretty damn good shot (Read: good BAB, high DEX, Far Shot, Burst Fire and (possibly) Weapon Focus).

To address range incriments, I'll just say that D20M is intended to model the cinema and popular media of Bond, Fury, and Rambo, not the real world of 2nd Lt. Monroe, USAF... The ranges are cut short on purpose, to lend themselves to close range firefights and action sequences. SpyCraft, Shadowrun, GURPS and everyone else does the same thing.

If you want over-the-horizon missiles, and long-range firefights, 'Rule 0' it. But do remeber, the acurate range of an M16 on the firing range and out in the hot and cold, and muddy, and goddamn WET jungles of `nam are not the same... no matter what your local arms dealer tells you.

I am such a know-it-all...

 

[Unseelie]

Troops are currently trained to use the M-16 at ranges out to 300 yards, which is about its effective range as well, amazingly enough.

Yes, you can hit targets at longer ranges but that starts to enter the realm of an extremely skilled (or lucky) character.

And, of course, the quality of the weapon is a concern. Hand me a match grade M-16 HBAR and I can hit targets at that range as well. Give me a standard issue M-16, not so likely.

One of the items that wasn't mentioned with sniper rules is that some of the dedicated sniper rifles in Ultramodern Weapons are considered to be dedicated sniper weapons and provide an additional +1 (bringing it to +4) to the bonuses provided by Dead Aim and Improved Dead Aim, but only if you have the feat (you have to be seriously skilled as a sniper to gain the benefit).

 

[Morgenstern]

Re: Semi-Rantish

To address range increments, I'll just say that D20M is intended to model the cinema and popular media of Bond, Fury, and Rambo, not the real world of 2nd Lt. Monroe, USAF... The ranges are cut short on purpose, to lend themselves to close range firefights and action sequences. SpyCraft, Shadowrun, GURPS and everyone else does the same thing.

Um, kinda have to chime in here. Spycraft not only allows, but kinda expects people to use sniping tactics, not just close range shootouts. The range increments for weapons in the Modern Arms Guide are much longer than what I've been hearing for other games. We have 2 feats for supperior practice at long range fire (x1.5 and x2 range increments) but even so, an M-16 has a normal range increment of 125 ft. Somebody mentioned 300 yards with one- that would be in the 8th increment: -14 is bad, but not outright impossible for a low teens-level Soldier type with some feats for accuracy. Take the two feats for improved range, and you're down to a mere -6. Take a half action to Brace for +2, and another to aim for +1, and you're in business .

Nobody has ever reported their Spycraft games fell apart from guns having longer ranges . A Barret M82A1 "light fifty" .50 cal rifle (the poster child of portable espionage sniper weapons) has a range increment of 375 ft. in Spycraft. You need a base range increment like that to pull off the various "1 mile kill" shots often described by professional marksmen. You'd need the feats, and a good telescopic scope (described in an earlier post in this thread), but what you really need is planning to use such a weapon properly .

...And players who whose neck-hairs rise when they realize they're out in the open, and someone might be looking down a telescopic scope at them...

 

[Tellerve]

Yes, government agencies, police, and such teach double tap but not with sniper rifles. You use double tap with a mp5 or pistol or other weapon that can fire twice quickly like that without aiming so much. When your eye is right at a scope the gun kicks and you loose your aim and wouldn't be able to double tap. Maybe I'm wrong, I haven't ever fired a hunting rifle with a scope nor a sniper rifle. But, I have seen them fired on tv and it sure doesn't look like they could get off two shots when they have to hold their breath to stop movement in the rifle.

Tellerve

 

[Roland Delacroix]

But, I have seen them fired on tv and it sure doesn't look like they could get off two shots when they have to hold their breath to stop movement in the rifle.

Shooters never hold their breath, it completely throws off your aim. You make breathing part of the aiming. I'm not sure if you could Double Tap with a scope either though.

The Spycraft system handles sniping, and combat in general, far better IMO. And don't even MENTION vehicle chases (a STAPLE of modern campaigns)..........

 

[Morgenstern]

Shooters never hold their breath, it completely throws off your aim. You make breathing part of the aiming. I'm not sure if you could Double Tap with a scope either though.

I was speaking with a friend who was an instructor for the US Army sniper school, and he said two words to me that left me in eternal terror of professional snipers: "pulmonary pause".

They don't just train to fire at the same point in the breathing cycle every time (generally on a full exhalation, but don't hold it or you'll start to tremble just slightly). The experts train to fire on a particular point in the pattern of their own heartbeats.

I don't want to be that good (even if my agent does 8)).

I can't say that I've ever heard of attempting a Double Tap for long range presision shooting. I have heard of using two shooters, especially for targets behind glass. At lng ranges, the deflecton of shattering the class can totally skew a shot, so one person shot breaks up the window, the second person's shot finds the target. Not the same thing though.

 

[Tellerve]

Yes, that was my bad, i shouldn't have said holding one's breath but rather controlling it. And I also had heard of the shooting between heartbeats for supreme snipers but well that's getting up there. But I'd love for you to ask that instructor if he or one of his snipers could put two bullets into the same person right after each other at say 750 yards? I'm guessing, guessing now, that he'd say you couldn't do a "double tap" of said sniper weapon which is all I really was getting at. In fact what I was really getting at was not to wrench and squeek the rules into a munchkinized version of themselves so that you had snipers double taping and autofiring while running from cover to cover or whatever else someone would have eventually figure out how to do in some rules loop hole.

Tellerve

 

[Moonsword]

Okay, allow me to respond to Mistwell's response to me (earlier). I haven't had time to follow this thread lately.

A direct post from the Federation of American Scientists (http://www.fas.org):
Maximum range :3,600 meters
Maximum effective ranged:
Area target: 2,624.8 feet (800 meters)
Point target: 1,804.5 feet (550 meters)

We're both right. I forgot the feats. I was still learning part of the mechanics at that point. I've since learned better about it. It's just that that's still a maximum range. That area target is a spray on a three-round burst. I can certainly make someone duck. Perhaps a DC 2 Reflex save for the people that far out. On a 1, they take a bullet, at 2d8-4 damaage (subtraction due to loss of velocity at range). How's that sound for a solution to the issue?

Here's the crazy part: some of the _sniper_ rifles have ranges that are basically the same, or very similar. The ranges just seem somewhat short to me, that's all.

 

[Moonsword]

Now responding to the rest.

Double Tap wouldn't work real well in a lot of sniper rifles. The GM should just glance at the descriptions of the breech for the character's weapon, and rule on it, and if it would work at that range w/o horrible inaccuracy penalites to the second shot. I can't think of anything other than an H&K G-11 that could do something like that without the shock of the first shot jerking the second far off target. At these ranges, even a slight twitch between the shots can easily lead to them landing dozens of feet apart. It would be possible, IMO, but incredibly stupid without the right equipment (read: gun).

The indivdual GMs always have the say, even when dealing with normal situaitons under the rules. This most assuredly is not. A lot of Modern conflict, in my experience (and IMHO), is within the first range increment for rifles, and some for pistols. These are extreme situations. We're debating general guidelines for oddball problems, not the merits of core rules. I know I needed that reminder mentally, and I though it would be a good thing to add. Again, the GM who makes the ruling in his game is right. All we can do is try to aid him. I am one this is directed at more than anyone else, so please do not take offense. This is just a disclaimer I'm tacking on.