Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 8366006" data-attributes="member: 7030563">A swashbuckler is the 2nd most powerful subclass but compared to this ability it is very limited.  Moreover a swashbuckler has to move into melee range and suffer the potential of being attacked in melee with a ready action to do this.A swashbuckler who attacks has to use a light weapon and he also has to have enough movement to get into melee or he can't take that bonus action attack at all.A swashbuckler with booming blade is using a feat to boost his damage, not a subclass ability and he can't use two weapon fighting if he does that.  If we are comparing feats vs feats a swashbuckler with booming blade kiting in and out against a 15AC foe is averaging 15.1 damage per turn (not counting movement damage) and he has to be within 5 feet to do it.  A sniper with fire on the move who takes elven accuracy is doing 19.0 per turn against the same DC15 foe and he can do it anywhere within 80 feet.  If he is not an elf and takes sharpshooter instead of EA he does average 17.6 per turn to anyone within 320 feet.  So he is outdamaging a swashbuckler who is optimized for damage and he is doing it from anywhere on the battlefield.Finally a Swashbuckler needs to invest in charisma to make the most of his subclass feats, while the sniper would not, making it easier to optimize damage.Put this together and the character with this feature does more damage, has more opportunities because there are larger area he can attack from, he is more survivable because he can push other stats like constitution and he is less vulnerable because he does not have to go into melee range at all.Hide is not automatic, you have to both find cover and pass a stealth check to suceed.  Steady aim is automatic, and it is very powerful as I mentioned above in my original post.  Steady Aim brings any ranged Rogue up to near the damage potential of the swashbuckler.No you are getting advantage more often because you can move.  Guy moves behind a wall and you can move to target him and still get advantage.  No other Rogue subclass at all can get advantage as a bonus action on the move.  None.  Not in melee, not when using missiles.Heck the inquisitor needs to actually pass an opposed check to get his "auto sneak attack" and if he passes it he still does not get advantage on top of that.This does not compare to those abilities it is WAY better.  I understand the reasoning for it, but like insightful strike and rakish audacity it should be SA only, not full up advantage.  It should be balanced with those abilities, not way better than them.Your math is wrong.  TWF with two d6 weapons for a Rogue is is slightly worse than advantage at most levels and most ACs.  To start with you have to use light weapons which are d6 instead of d8 and you don't get your ability damage on the second attack.  Disregarding crits, this means your base weapon damage is 2.5 higher if you hit with both dice, if you hit with only 1 die your damage is 1-6 worse than a Rogue who rolled the same two dice with advantage and a d8 weapon.  That is without crits.  When you figure in crits, advantage is better overall because it doubles damage dice regardless of which roll is a 20.   If you roll with advantage, you take the highest die, meaning if one of them is a 20 and the other is a normal hit you crit with your SA.  If you do TWF and you hit with your action you would use SA at that time.  If then go on to crit with your bonus attack you do not get any crit dice for your SA.  Numerically as an example against a 15AC foe a 5th level Rogue with an 18 dex will average 17.4 damage per turn using TWF and no advantage with 2 short swords.  The same Rogue using a d8 weapon with advantage every turn will average 18.1 damage per turn.  Having advantage is slightly better due to the interplay between the rolls and crits and the higher base damage.Aside from the slight advantage in damage, if they make two attacks they need to stay in melee unless they are a swashbuckler or suffer a reaction attack and they risk a melee reaction attack even if they are a swashbuckler simply by moving into melee range.Further two attacks is only better than advantage if you meet your sneak attack requirements.  If you are a melee Rogue and you win initiative and move and you are not a swashbuckler or inquisitive you are screwed out of SA, not so for your character here.  As I alluded to earlier., sneak attack can be stopped cold with dodge and that melee TWF Rogue  does not get it back at all unless he makes his movement 0 (even if he is a swashbuckler) and that means he has to start his turn in melee range.  Your character can still get SA in these circumstances.Sneak attack and advantage are two different things.  Sneak attack is meant to be available most of the time.  Advantage is not.  If this was an ability that let the sniper target someone with SA even if you did not have an enemy within 5 feet it would be fine.  And if the sniper doesn't need to move then he can take steady aim like any other Rogue.Light crossbow does more damage than the hand crossbow and Rogue can not automatically use BA hide for advantage.  To start with you need to be obscured to TRY to hide and when you make that attempt you need to pass a stealth check. And if you fail that check you can't get advantage.There is no other Rogue ability that provides advantage when you move on demand.  No other ability is close.Not only you can move anywhere to eliminat cover so not only are you giving advantage you are also taking away cover restrictions at the same time.A normal Rogue takes steady aim and shoots the first turn.  The fighter rushes up and attack the enemy.  Now the Rogue "can" take steady aim again but he suffers a cover penalty.  Your guy just moves to eliminate the cover and still gets advantage.  This is a common example, it is even worse if the enemy runs behind a wall or something.The mechanic between "terrain" and "lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena." is completely different.  Terrain is everywhere, natural phenomena is not.My understanding is lethal aim is one ability and that one ability includes rerolling 1s and 2s, d8 SA dice and the take someone to zero.  If I have that wrong I appologize.  That said giving him just d8SA dice alone would be OP as would rerolling more than 1 or 2 on a single roll.  If we just look at the d8 SA damage, that is an extra SA dice every 6 levels.I am an engineer.  I think of things like this in terms of math, not emotions.  Math by its nature is formal.  You claimed regarding my suggestion - "That level 3 is...much less than most rogue subclasses get."I asked for an example of which Rogues get much more at level 3 and you have not provided any.  I am simply asking you to support your claim.  I provided examples to back up mine.There are 9 Rogue subclasses, if what I proposed (proficiency and expertise, part of a feat and 2 weapons), is "much less then most Rogue subclasses get" then there should be at least 5 subclasses that get much more at level 3.  I am asking for examples of those.There are 9 Rogue subclasses.  Fully six of them give extra proficiencies, expertise or bonuses on skill checks at level 3. I am balancing against subclasses that actually exist.  That is the concept of balance.  It may be "boring" but it is balanced.Great then why not do that if that is the Rogue you want to build?  What I proposed is balanced with other Rogue subclass features, not with a potential multiclass into a martial character.If you are talking about the ability to crit on a 19 at 9th level.  Yes it is good, probably middle of the pack as far as 9th-level Rogue abilities.  That is the idea of balance.Boring and balanced.  I picked them because they are "balanced" and fit the theme you are looking for.  The thief gets an extra turn at 17th level, and that is the best 17th level feature of any Rogue subclass.  However that did not seem in line with the theme of a sniper to me.To be honest though I criticized Shoot on the Run and at lower levels it is way over other Rogue abilities IMO, but that would be good at 17th level as an alternative to Sudden Strike or Lightning Reflexes and I would let it be used without requiring your BA.</blockquote>

Verification