So, Dark Sun: It's officially out. What do you think of it?

Nope. "Wield" means attacking with, hold does not.

As we cross-posted, I pointed out that WotC sometimes uses "wield" and "hold" interchangeably.

However, that section clearly indicates that you can "wield" 2 weapons simultaneously- obviously not two 2 hand ones, since that's physically impossible- but can only "attack" with one under most circumstances.

IOW, "wield"≠ "attack."
 

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I have also had time now to fully digest the Creature Catalog, which is really good. It's one of my favorite monster books by far, not just because it's another host of excellent creatures that use the MM3 stat block and have some decent fluff. Some of the creatures though really confuse me, like the Mekillot, which is supposed to be this horribly ferocious thing but it looks obscenely cute (even their 2E art does). Of course it is bigger than a house so maybe it is more terrifying in 'person' than it is from looking at its art in the book so there might be something I'm missing there. Dark Sun also has a good helping of things I would just describe as "delightfully goofy" monsters, like the cactus that makes zombies and the other one that runs people down.

The solos, looking at them look like they need some help though. Unlike MM3 solos and some of those being published now like the new dragons - they seem to be very under-action economied. They don't have a lot of specific protections to daze, dominate and stun - which is pretty disappointing and are loaded up on lots of standard actions (which due to the above, they are unlikely to get many of). While they are designed nicely, they will definitely need some powers to help out with being stun-locked and similar. Especially because many of them are epic tier. The elites actually work a lot better than the solos because of this.

Not all the solos are like this though, one makes tentacle minions to help out and you can easily play with the number of minions to make him one very tough cookie. The advantage of the minions is that they protect his action economy easily (as technically the tentacles are a part of the solo monster, not separate creatures) and force the PCs to choose between attacking the solo or the tentacles. Additionally this even rewards PCs with area/burst powers, something that often gets overlooked in a genuine "solo" fight. It's easily one of the most evocative and well designed solos in the book: a fantastic model for anyone who wants to run a Kraken type encounter in a normal campaign as well.

There are some gaffs though, one of the arena/gladiator monster power swaps is ridiculously poorly worded. It's supposed to allow saves against effects that a save can't end, such as stun and daze. Unfortunately whoever wrote the power made it an immediate reaction, making it completely useless against most of these powers and effects anyway. It's a bit of mystery why it was done like this, because it makes the power pretty useless as it will never actually be used on anything that it wants to be used on. On the other hand, some of the theme powers are terrific, like the elementally infused powers and the sunwarped mutations (even has a random table!).

Overall I approved very much of the creature catalog and I can definitely see Dark Sun monsters being refluffed and moved into my other non-Dark Sun games as well.
 




WotC saw the art and knew or should have known there was a divide between the perception the cover could generate and the game's actual mechanics, at least in terms of Dark Sun legacy consumers. Instead of paying that (or another) artist for more a cover piece more congruent, they moved forward. $$$ won; expectations were manipulated and they reaped the financial benefit.

I understand what you're saying, but I still think you're making a mountain out of a molehill in this case (and even that seems too big.)

It's a picture that YOU interpret to be a guy about to swing an ax with claws that by the rules he doesn't have a power that lets him do it. (I won't even get into the whole page 42 thing...) And you're equating this to a corporation deliberately insulting us basically.


Rather then they didn't "care enough about your customers' potential reaction to said strategies as long as you continue to sell product" perhaps they didn't even fathom that anyone would even look at this picture and be "upset?" Especially for the reasons you're presenting.

Again as I said earlier- if you really are upset about this- whatever floats your boat man... Just color me mystified that you REALLY feel this way.
 

Does it have to make sense to you? It is his opinion. Sounds like you are getting all filled with umbrage because his opinion differs from yours. That's absurd. ;)

First of all, at no point am I taking umbrage with anything. His opinion is just that and there is nothing wrong with having an opinion. Sometimes you just don't like something and without any logical reason for it, and that seems to me to be the case here. What I am saying is the reasons that he is using to support that opinion are what don't make sense. (Others have already pointed out why it doesn't make sense, so I will spare everyone a long repeat here.) The reasons presented are no different than getting upset with the product because you don't get the sexy girl on the cover of the product brochure. It is basically a form of visual puffery.
 

Thri-kreen attacking with DOUBLE the usual amount of weapons would be broken in 4th ed, as they don't have to worry about the prior editions' limits (where they couldn't use armour and most gear except rings)

only thing that bugs me was when 3rd and much more in 4th, the thrikreen have lost their abdomens! they look unbalanced now, doh.

some good art in the books but yeah the mekillot and kirre look terrible and no ICNONIC art, I havne't liked 4th ed art though in general because there's nothing at all with grandeur, nothing with the fantastic depth and power of Elmore, Cladwell, Easley, Parkinson or Brom :/

mechanic wise etc, it's very good :)
glad they left out the back history, just bitsof it or hints fo rthose who want ot use it
I hate that metaplot history, ick
nice lot of Athasian themed feats
think they were wrong ot kill off Kalak, making it a time of trouble, anarchy, fear, crackdowns etc in Tyr, and letting PCs kill him would have been better

I do wish it ws bigger though, but it is packed with stuff.
on the whole an "A" :)
 
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Thri-kreen attacking with DOUBLE the usual amount of weapons would be broken in 4th ed, as they don't have to worry about the prior editions' limits (where they couldn't use armour and most gear except rings)

Actually, 4E is well-suited to potentially allowing for multiple weapons available to attack with - keep in mind that in order to get multiple attacks you usually need specific powers or such that allow for it. A dual-wielding ranger doesn't get to swing twice with basic attacks - just with his attacks designed for the use of two-weapons. Four weapons woundn't translate to four attacks unless they designed powers for it.

As such, Thri-kreen who could wield weapons in both sets of hands would potentially be quiet doable in 4E. It would mainly just mean that they could have more of a choice of which weapons to attack with at any given time. And maybe there could be the occasional power or paragon path to let them take a couple big swings.

And, I suspect, that may well have been what happened - the initial design of them might have allowed for exactly that. This art could even have been commissioned at the time.... and then become less accurate when, perhaps, playtesting revealed problems with that initial design?

All just theory here, still, but I could see them realizing that while multiple functional limbs didn't look like an issue initially, it could result in problem areas. What happens if the Thri-kreen carries around two 2-handed weapons? Can they use both with Twin Strike? What happens if they want to carry around a 2-handed weapon, a 1-handed weapon, and a shield - can they attack with multiple weapons while gaining a shield benefit? And even if you create more detailed rules to balance this circumstances, you might run into issues with more limbs letting the Thri-kreen hold more weapons/implements/shields with magical properties, potentially getting extra 'slots' of items than other characters.

You could come up with a complex rules set that addresses all this... but by this point, maybe it looks best to just say the extra limbs are non-combat limbs, and useful for the occasional claw strike and quickly adjusting weaponry (thus providing all the primary benefit that one would have gotten out of multiple weapons in the first place.)

Now, at this point, do you redo the art you've already got? Which isn't quite a perfect picture of how the Thri-kreen work, but is relatively close to it, and a pretty good piece of art to begin with? Maybe a half-dozen gamers in existence will find it to be false advertising and be offended by it, but it doesn't seem likely to be a big problem, and certainly not worth throwing out the cover art and having it entirely redone.

Thus, we end up with a picture that implies Thri-kreen can wield several weapons at once even if they can't do so.

Now, is this actually how it happened? No idea at all. Just speculation on my part, on one way it could come about, and what seems one of the most likely possibilities. And I can't really blame WotC, in this situation or a similar one, for not completely redoing the cover art over something that would be a concern to, in the end, likely no more than a handful of people.
 

I understand what you're saying, but I still think you're making a mountain out of a molehill in this case (and even that seems too big.)

It's a picture that YOU interpret to be a guy about to swing an ax with claws that by the rules he doesn't have a power that lets him do it. (I won't even get into the whole page 42 thing...) And you're equating this to a corporation deliberately insulting us basically.


Rather then they didn't "care enough about your customers' potential reaction to said strategies as long as you continue to sell product" perhaps they didn't even fathom that anyone would even look at this picture and be "upset?" Especially for the reasons you're presenting.

Again as I said earlier- if you really are upset about this- whatever floats your boat man... Just color me mystified that you REALLY feel this way.

Again, I specifically stated that this did not have to be deliberate on WotC's part- merely that they simply didn't care. Please stop misrepresenting my opinion.

And why is it unimportant that I think a race has been neutered in it's new form? Pg22- they cannot even HOLD weapons in their secondary hands- is COMPLETELY at odds with the cover art and is only in harmony with game history...which they tossed.

As for the cover bin "mere puffery" ( other poster), it's not. Puffery would indicate exaggeration that was never part of the depicted subect's history- like a Volvo beating a top-fuel dragster in the quarter mile- or exaggerating the subject's actual attributes to mythical proportions- like a Volvo being depicted as uncrushable by a monster truck.

Here, a Bug was depicted as it would have worked in previous editions, when as per p22 RAW, he should not have even been able to hold the axe with the secondary limbs at all. That isn't puffery.

As for the mere handfull of gamers who would be ticked off by this...well, we'll never know. I'm talking about it online, yes, but most who feel as I do may not bother and simply not buy the product.
 
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