So...How are Sales of 4E Product?

[I'm A Banana]

I think you overestimate the power of the brand name to sell 900 pages of ~ specific examples deleted: PS~.

Versus 900 pages of different ways to roll dice and pretend to be a prancing elf?

I mean, it was hyperbole, but let's not delude ourselves about what we're actually being sold, here, either. It's...not really a very useful thing...you can't eat it or build a bridge out of it or use it to make a house, and you can certainly pretend to be a prancing elf and roll dice around without it.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Are you sure about that?

I think that 2e sold worse than 1e. In the early eighties D&D sold really a lot.

You could be right, I didn't do any fact-checking on it. Even if true, though, the growth of the game has been a rising curve with a "2e hiccup" there in the middle.

 

[The Little Raven]

Versus 900 pages of different ways to roll dice and pretend to be a prancing elf?

There's a world of difference between just another RPG about pretending to be a prancing elf and FATAL. You're saying that the worse RPG ever made, which is filled to the brim with violence towards women and a fixation on sex in a juvenile and disturbing fashion would sell like hotcakes just because of the D&D name. It's like saying that a snuff film would hit #1 at the box office if it had the name Star Wars slapped on it. Sorry, but that dog don't hunt.

You're right that people are fundamentally insane, because you've proven that with hyperbole that goes beyond the bounds of reasonable exaggeration.

 

[darjr]

4e is doing very, very well indeed, but I think you severely underestimate the brand loyalty of D&D fans. 4e isn't doing great because it's a messiah of a game, come to save us all from darkness and lead us into the light. Or at least, not JUST because of that.

No, I don't think I am. And please note, that I didn't make that assumption. What I did do is point out that I think it's silly to make the claim that Fatal with D&D on the cover would sell as well. In my mind it is an absurd claim.

2e did better than 1e, which did better than OD&D, and 3e did better than 2e.

This is a claim that, on the face of it, I have a hard time believing. Do you have any evidence?

It doesn't mean 4e has won some sort of "better than sex!" contest. All my little quip was pointing out was that 4e sales doesn't tell you much very specifically about 4e aside from the fact that a lot of people bought it. A lot of people buy illegal drugs, romance novels, and mass-produced oil paintings of Jesus, too.

Note that I wasn't addressing this. What I was addressing was your claim that fatal with D&D slapped on the cover would do as well. I think you are completely and totally incorrect.

I used to think that sales and cost and that whole capitalism bag were sort of a democratic process of quality or at least functional usefulness. But then I remembered that people are fundamentally insane, and that you can create supply and demand for pardons from sins, if you wanted. Buying 4e is probably motivated more by hope, fear, curiosity, loyalty, and other nebulous things than it is by whether or not fighters can trip at-will or per-day. Meaning that, if the rules were FATAL, but the name was D&D, it would still inspire that emotional hope/fear/curiosity/loyalty/etc. A rose by any other name would NOT smell as sweet, so to speak.

OK, this, what? I can't help you here. I'll just say that I'm sorry 4e's success has dredged all this up for you.

4e is selling well. This is to be expected, praised even. But try not to make the mistake of assuming 4e is selling well because it is the bestest. Sales don't tell you very much about quality. Awesome stuff goes unnoticed, and crud gets consumed because human beings are not eminently logical creatures. Sales probably tell you more about how popular the fantasy genre has become since 2000, and how well WotC's pre 4e media blitz reminded people that D&D still exists, than it does about anything that's between those splashy covers.

I'll just say, that I made no such claim. I, personally, think 4e is a great game. I, personally, think that it's sales reflect that. I understand, maybe not why, that you disagree, fine. I think, though, that your claim that fatal with D&D slapped on the cover would do just as well is a bit more than just hyperbole, I think it is just plain wrong.

 

[Greg K]

Not to mention record spots on the NYT bestseller list. Ever seen other RPG's on that?
.

Yes,
"FAST FACTS:
-- Manufactured by Wizards of the Coast Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro Inc., the third edition of the Dungeons & Dragons (D&D(R)) Player's Handbook has appeared on several top publishing lists, including the New York Times best-seller list and USA Today's Best-Selling Books List. The Dungeons & Dragons Player's Handbook peaked at number three on Amazon.com's Yet-To-Be Published Best-Sellers list." SEATTLE--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Dec. 19, 2001

 

[CharlesRyan]

Didn't Dancey state that a lot of those numbers were gone when WotC bought TSR?

So did Ryan.

 

[CharlesRyan]

Er, the one whose last name is Ryan, not first name . . . .

 

[The Little Raven]

Er, the one whose last name is Ryan, not first name . . . .

Don't I recall you stating in some interview back in 2003 that you (WotC) were selling more PHBs per year than during the "peak" back during AD&D 1e?

 

[Jack99]

Yes,
"FAST FACTS:
-- Manufactured by Wizards of the Coast Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro Inc., the third edition of the Dungeons & Dragons (D&D(R)) Player's Handbook has appeared on several top publishing lists, including the New York Times best-seller list and USA Today's Best-Selling Books List. The Dungeons & Dragons Player's Handbook peaked at number three on Amazon.com's Yet-To-Be Published Best-Sellers list." SEATTLE--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Dec. 19, 2001

I fail to see how this makes 4e any less of a success... Either way, my point was not to debate if 4e was a success or not. My point was that it's odd how people distrust everything WotC says regarding 4e's success, but at the same time takes anything Mr. Mona says at face value, regarding Paizo's success. Now, just to be clear, I do not believe Mona lies or anything, I just find the extreme double-standard funny.

 

[Delta]

Don't I recall you stating in some interview back in 2003 that you (WotC) were selling more PHBs per year than during the "peak" back during AD&D 1e?

I'd love to see a direct answer to this.