So its all about combat again?

It's like if all you could do in combat was say "I attack," and every time you missed your party just took a certain % hp of damage, and the only choice you had in the matter was an assortment of weapons that you had a different bonus to, but were otherwise identical.

Yeah, this. The skill challenge core mechanic is workable, just as attack-hit-damage as the core mechanic of combat is workable. But the core mechanic, by itself and devoid of any additional systems, is not enough. Either the DM and players need freedom to go outside the rules, giving extra rewards for clever ideas (the BD&D combat model), or the rules need to layer a variety of options and subsystems on top of the core (the 4E combat model).

Skill challenges as written are like BD&D combat where the DM treats every declared player action, no matter how off-the-wall or inventive, as an attack for damage.
 

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Crazy Jerome said:
. I took it as a given when I first read the rules that each roll would affect the situation--and thus "evolve" the skill challenge, as a natural extrapolation of the mechanics and their purposes.

Which is good, but fits within the "narrative razzle-dazzle."

Neonchameleon said:
I work out whether it's core or assistance and the difficulty...On the third complication the plan fails. Unless they've been smart enough to not just engage with but subvert the complications (engaging with them is just an extra success)....Give the players the fiction, and the skill challenge as DMs tool becomes an excellent non-arbitrary way of setting the difficulty for resolving an insane PC plan

So, a combo of narrative razzle-dazzle, and a few tweaks to the system (assistance, and resolving complications).

Dausuul said:
The skill challenge core mechanic is workable, just as attack-hit-damage as the core mechanic of combat is workable. But the core mechanic, by itself and devoid of any additional systems, is not enough

IMO, adding "monsters" (active opposition) and "powers" (options) works quite a bit, though that's basically your second option.

The first option is nice, but like I pointed out in reaction to a recent Monte Cook article, folks need stuff to hang their hats on.
 

At the risk of a derailment, that's not "by the book". And in saying that, I'm not really meaning to take issue with you - your post is just the trigger for a more general point! - but to try to bring out an important aspect of non-combat action resolution.

What the books actually say to players is:
Your DM sets the stage for a skill challenge by describing the obstacle you face and giving you some idea of the options you have in the encounter. Then you describe your actions and make checks until you either successfully complete the challenge or fail. (PHB p 259)

It’s up to you to think of ways you can use your skills to meet the challenges you face. (PHB p 179)
And to GMs, they say:
Begin by describing the situation and defining the challenge. (DMG p 74)

More so than perhaps any other kind of encounter, a skill challenge is defined by its context in an adventure… Define the goal of the challenge and what obstacles the characters face to accomplish that goal… You describe the environment, listen to the players’ responses, let them make their skill checks, and narrate the results. (DMG pp 72, 73)

When a player’s turn comes up in a skill challenge, let that player’s character use any skill the player wants. As long as the player or you can come up with a way to let this secondary skill play a part in the challenge, go for it… In skill challenges, players will come up with uses for skills that you didn’t expect to play a role. Try not to say no… This encourages players to think about the challenge in more depth… However, it’s particularly important to make sure these checks are grounded in actions that make sense in the adventure and the situation… you should ask what exactly the character might be doing … Don’t say no too often, but don’t say yes if it doesn’t make sense in the context of the challenge. (DMG pp 73, 75)
I think this is all pretty straightforward. (The advice for setting DCs, on the other hand, remains wonky even through the Essentials books.) The GM describes a situation, the players describe how their PCs tackle it, checks are made based on that description, and the GM adjudicates the outcomes of those checks. The players then engage the new situation via their PCs, until the challenge either is overcome or overcomes, and the situation is thereby resolved (at X successes or 3 failures).

What is missing is a clear statement (i) of the rationale for the X succeses before Y failures structure, and (ii) of how to narrate the outcomes of checks so as to maintain the coherence of the fiction over the challenge. In my own case, I plugged those gaps by drawing on the better GMing advice found in other RPGs that have mechanics by which I assume skill challenges were inspired.

I don't agree with the end of your sentence. Skill challenges are a version of "extended contest" resolution systems seen in several systems, including HeroWars/Quest, Maelstrom Storytelling, and Burning Wheel's Duel of Wits.

Those systems work in practice, and so do skill challenges provided similar techniques are used. Here are some examples from my 4e game.

The rationale for an "X before Y" mechanic is much the same as the rationale for hit point depletion in combat: it gives a clear signal for when the conflict is resolved. (As opposed to relying on the mere intuition or fiat of one or more of the participants at the table.) I'm not saying that the skill challenge is the best or only way to do it - it is a "players roll all the dice variant", and that introduces certain oddities compared to the HeroQuest or Burning Wheel versions - but in its basic features it's a member of a well-established family of mechanics.

The tricky thing in any extended contest mechanic is to get the narration right - if you "close" too early, or leave matters "open" for too long, the narration and the mechanics can get out of whack. The standard solution to this problem is for the GM to metagame heavily in narrating the proceedings - ie in response to early successes, the GM introduces new, externally-sourced complications, and as the challenge is coming to an end, the GM has to be prepared to narrate in externally-sourced resolutions ("Ah, now I remember, you're the nephew of so-and-so who was my dear old friend . . ." would be a simple example of the latter).

The payoff is that (i) resoloving non-combat conflicts doesn't rely on GM fiat, and (ii) those conflicts occupy the same amount of time and dramatic "space" at the table as does combat, and hence contribute as much to the narrative. (I have seen it said that, because in a skill challenge the players can never win on their first skill check, no matter how brilliant their conception and execution, it is therefore a form of railroading. Key to running a skill challenge is realising that this mechanical impossibility is no different from the fact that, because of hit point rules, a PC cannot kill a dragon on the first blow, no matter how brilliant the ambush and how florid the narration of the vicious strike to the beast's neck. The whole point of hit point based combat, and of skill challenges, is to create extended contests. If you want quick combat, where one hit can kill, you use minions. If you want quick non-combat resolution, where one skill check can overcome a challenge, you use simple skill checks.)

Furthermore, the need for the GM to introduce complications as part of the process of resolution, and the need for the players to then respond to those complications, pushes the situation in unexpected directions. Interesting stuff happens, that no one wanted or had even thought of at the start, but that everyone is invested in by the time the conflict comes to an end. (This plays out differently from the compromise mechanic in a BW Duel of Wits, but performs something like the same functional role.)

Anyway, lessons for D&Dnext? If you want non-combat to be as significant a pillar as combat, you have to create resolution systems which (i) will make it have the same heft and depth at the table as combat, and (ii) will make players confident to invest PC-building resources into non-combat capabilities. Conversely, if non-combat action resolution is mostly single skill checks with huge amounts of GM fiat around the framing and the adjudication of the outcome, players have little incentive to invest PC-building resources (because no clear sense of what the payoff will be) and, when the chips are down, are likely to choose combat as a reliable and predictable resolution system, rather than relying on GM-fiated non-combat to get their PCs out of trouble.

There's other stuff that can be learned from skill challenges (and similar extended contest mechanics) too - like the importance of multi-dimensional stakes to encourage players to not always opt to engage via their highest numbers. A simple example from combat is the difference between melee and ranged - even a fighter with a fairly poxy ranged attack will still use that attack when his/her enemy can't be engaged in melee. Which is to say that combat can be framed in more dimensions than just "roll your attack skill and apply your damage". Similarly with non-combat - if you occasionally want the dwarf fighter to try to charm someone with CHA rather than intimidate them with STR, you need to frame situations where the stakes are multi-dimensional: for example, the player can see that his/her PC might be better off looking polite, even if the NPC ends up not being persuaded, than looking scary, even though that might be the easier route to persuasion.

This ties in to the GM metagaming the resolution, too: when the CHA check fails, for example, instead of the GM declaring that the dwarf tried to be charming but was in fact rude - which will just make the player resolve to always go for STR and intimidation - the GM narrates the dwarf being charming, but the NPC nevertheless declining to go along with the offer ("I would love to help, but sadly swore an oath to my now-dead father that precludes me from helping you in this endeavour" - that also opens up the door for another PC to try Religion, or even Forbidden Lore, to try to free the NPC from his/her oath!).

And it also helps if the stakes aren't always live or die - if the player knows his/her dwarf fighter will die unless the NPC helps, then no amount of desire to be seen as polite is going to override that! Using more subtle and nuanced stakes helps open up the space for a wider range of meaningful choices by players.

As far as its core stat check mechanics is concerned, D&Dnext is well-placed to support this sort of non-combat stuff. But it is going to need the mechanics to give it heft and pacing and freedom from mere fiat (some form of extended contest mechanics, even if not exactly skill-challenge style ones). And it is going to need better GMing advice than they were able to produce for 4e.

I'm personally not all that inspired by the playtest documents. They seem to canvass only single-dimensional stakes, of the live-or-die variety, and the treatment of interaction - both in the rule sections, and in the medusa encounter (the most interesting interaction in the module), is pretty pitiful in my view.

I think this is right.

But the strange thing is, it seems to be much the same fans who decry balancing classes, and PCs more generally, around combat. It seems that they want stuff other than combat to matter, but aren't interested in the well-known mechanical solutions that actually deliver that result!

Spot on! Brothers can you spare some XP for I must spreadeth mine before giving here again.

Once in a while I run a skill challenge by the book in LFR because we can joke about it but generally I just meander in to them and it flows very well.
 

Which is good, but fits within the "narrative razzle-dazzle."

Not unless you mean something different by the phrase than the way I took it. Let's leave D&D entirely for a moment here to make a contrast on the influences. Since I'm fairly certain both, contradictory influences are right there in the PHB and DMG advice, this isn't far-fetched.

There is what I would call "narrative razzle-dazzle," AKA "DM makes something up" or "DM BS". This is most clearly expressed to me in a passage in The Fairie Tale ruleset (which I don't have handy), that says more or less, "if the big bad troll gives your PC fairies a bad time, make sure you narrate a way that they get what they want anyway."

This is very much in contrast to the BW drive, which is roughly that the rules are there to set up hard boundaries in certain key places so that you can be a regular Rat-Bastard DM within those confines--and make the players work hard for what they want.

The former is narrative layed on top of something mechanically (and often fictionally) light (or in the worst cases, layed on top of nothing). The latter is mechanics designed to push away the fictionally light in favor of the fictionally solid--and then engage with it.

In turn, this is why pemeton is dead on that the stakes and intent matter, and the system must reasonably accommodate failure without derailing. In The Fairie Tale, the system can't handle failure at all--except as a bit of DM advice to handwave it way as soon as it matters. In BW, the system is built to make failure (almost) as interesting and as acceptablle as success. (It backs away very slightly in a few key places--e.g. mortal wounds--where the consequences are ultra severe.)

D&D has always sat somewhere in the middle on this question--and should. But it needs to be a middle predicated on a clear understanding of the two poles, not a mushy combination of them. :)
 

Umm, how is wandering monsters tables not combat linked? It's not like you are going to talk your way past most of them.

Keep in mind that, in early editions, the term "Monster" meant Any creature that isn't a pc. The guy you're buying armor from? Monster. The king giving you your mission? Monster. The dwarven pilgrims on the road? Monster.

In fact, here's the "Elven Forest" example wandering monster chart from the 1e MM2:

1e Monster Manual 2 said:
2 Faerie dragon
3 Elfin cat
4 Brownie
5 Elf, Grugach
6 Cooshee
7 Leprechaun
8 Elf, Wood
9 Bear, Black
10 Falcon, Stag*
11 Stag
12 Raven, Normal
13 Boar, Wild
14 Owl
15 Gnoll
16 Elf, Grey
17 Barkburr
18 Dryad
19 Gnolls with Flind
20 Foxwoman or Groaning Spirit (night)

*Clearly this is a typo; it's probably supposed to read "Falcon, Small".

So you'll hit a "probably combat" encounter on a 5, 9, 13, 15, 17, 19 or 20, and a "probably not combat" encounter on a 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 14, 16 or 18. Of those, you have "probably talking" on a 2,3, 4, 7, 8, 16 or 18.

So, yeah- wandering monsters might be combat related, but interaction or exploration options are equally likely on a well-thought out encounter chart. Heck, some had things like "landslide" on them, too!
 


Not unless you mean something different by the phrase than the way I took it. Let's leave D&D entirely for a moment here to make a contrast on the influences. Since I'm fairly certain both, contradictory influences are right there in the PHB and DMG advice, this isn't far-fetched.

There is what I would call "narrative razzle-dazzle," AKA "DM makes something up" or "DM BS". This is most clearly expressed to me in a passage in The Fairie Tale ruleset (which I don't have handy), that says more or less, "if the big bad troll gives your PC fairies a bad time, make sure you narrate a way that they get what they want anyway."

This is very much in contrast to the BW drive, which is roughly that the rules are there to set up hard boundaries in certain key places so that you can be a regular Rat-Bastard DM within those confines--and make the players work hard for what they want.

The former is narrative layed on top of something mechanically (and often fictionally) light (or in the worst cases, layed on top of nothing). The latter is mechanics designed to push away the fictionally light in favor of the fictionally solid--and then engage with it.

In turn, this is why pemeton is dead on that the stakes and intent matter, and the system must reasonably accommodate failure without derailing. In The Fairie Tale, the system can't handle failure at all--except as a bit of DM advice to handwave it way as soon as it matters. In BW, the system is built to make failure (almost) as interesting and as acceptablle as success. (It backs away very slightly in a few key places--e.g. mortal wounds--where the consequences are ultra severe.)

D&D has always sat somewhere in the middle on this question--and should. But it needs to be a middle predicated on a clear understanding of the two poles, not a mushy combination of them. :)

Well said, would have XPed you but I need to spread the love around.

I must admit that I'm optimistic about having a fleshed out systems for interaction and exploration ever since Mike tweeted that one of the advantages of going with a modular design is that they can take each module to the 11 since they know that the folks who would use it would like to use it.

Warder
 

Look at just about any RPG out there - certainly any mainstream one, and you'll see pages and pages of how to kill stuff and paragraphs and paragraphs on how to talk to stuff.

And still I have yet to find a other RPG which places so much emphasize on combat over all other activity. Be it Shadowrun, Warhammer or Traveller, the combat takes up a lot less % of space and all those RPGs even allow you to play a character which is not a highly trained combatant.
In those RPGs combat, while still prominent, is not the sole purpose of playing. It just happens.

In D&D on the other hand you have to play someone skilled in combat. So no matter how detailed the other pillars in 5E will become, you won't be able to play an "explorer" if the classes stay like they are. Instead you play a combatant who also explores.
Its not necessarily about having a complex mechanic for non combat. I certainly don't want another skill challenge system. But in D&D you are unable to escape from combat. And when reading the rule books of previous editions I never get the impression that the game considers non combat to be important.
 
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Crazy Jerome said:
The former is narrative layed on top of something mechanically (and often fictionally) light (or in the worst cases, layed on top of nothing). The latter is mechanics designed to push away the fictionally light in favor of the fictionally solid--and then engage with it.

It's all raw narrative. The only difference is between "bad narrative" (deus ex machina in Fairy Tale, and "You make progress without completing the task" in 4e SC's) and "Good Narrative" (like "You accomplish X with your skill check, but there's still Y, Z, and Q left").

Good narrative is better than bad narrative, but narrative itself doesn't address the fact that SC's are mechanically dull, and rely on narrative as a crutch to cover that up.

Not to turn this thread into something ALL ABOUT SC's. ;)
 


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