D&D 5E So...Skill Challenges

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
I agree my "getting past a guard" isnt a good example of something for which a skill challenge would be suitable.

I guess another "skills" issue is working out how complex the skill use situation should be.

It seems 4e was the main source of the developed skill challenge mechanic (sadly I largely missed that edition), does anyone have good examples of how it was used and worked well in a wotc (or 3p) adventure?

The skill challenge demands stakes (what you get if you win, what you get if you lose) and complexity which is set by the DM. A Complexity 5 skill challenge requires 12 successes before 3 failures; a Complexity 1 skill challenge requires 4 successes before 3 failures. Get the required successes before 3 failures and you win. Otherwise, you lose. Other complexities called for 10, 8, and 6 successes.

A given Complexity skill challenge had a number of medium DCs and hard DCs. The higher the complexity, the more hard DCs. You also have Advantages which are somewhat tactical elements the players could use to make DCs lower, remove failures, and earn additional successes for one check. Like hard DCs, you get more Advantages with a higher complexity.

A given challenge will include Primary Skills and Secondary skills. Primary Skills are skills that are the most appropriate for dealing with the challenge and count toward completion of the skill challenges. Secondary Skills are generally used to grant bonuses to subsequent efforts, but successes with them don't usually count toward the completion of the skill challenge. The general rule of thumb was primary and secondary skills equal to the number of PCs plus two, so in a five-person party, that's a range of 7 skills that could conceivably apply to the given challenge.

It's been a while since I've looked at any D&D 4e adventures, so I can't comment on which of them were particularly good. But above is the basic structure of the skill challenge as written in the Rules Compendium. You'd run them much like I suggest in my first post in this thread - by presenting complications for the PCs to overcome while striving toward the overarching goal.
 

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So while the combat with the street thugs is fun, when the party then needs to get past the guard the group shoves the diplomacy guy forward and stands quietly while a single (or a few) d20 is rolled (with or without roleplaying), which is not a fun way to get over an obstacle.

That's my view of the "problem" - I'm interested in how others have dealt with it.
I don't really see it as a problem, because talking your way past the guard is rarely the only obstacle in your path. Sure, you do need to deal with the guards somehow (through diplomacy or intimidation, or maybe stealth); but then you need to get through a locked door (by picking it, or kicking it down, or using magic); and then find the thing you're looking for (by searching for clues, asking for directions, or asking one of the rats); and so on. Combat is where everyone shines together, so it's important that everyone can contribute there. Exploration is where everyone shines independently, so it's important that characters have different skill sets.

You could abstract the whole mission into one extended skill challenge if you really wanted to, requiring X numbers of successes between Y relevant skills before accruing Z failures, but then you're left trying to puzzle together what all of that means. In the exact same way that saying "I use investigation" is not sufficient to let you find the thing - you actually need to say where you're looking, and how, in order for the DM to figure out what you find - simply saying that you use a certain combination of skills and abilities to succeed at your task is not sufficient for the DM to narrate what happened there. Maybe it's fine if you enjoy abstraction, and you're good at reassembling a series of skill checks into an over-arching narrative, but that's ... let's just say that's an acquired taste. Personally, I prefer to take each task one at a time, so I have more detail to work with on how everything is resolving.
 

SubDude

Explorer
The early system - n successes before n failures - was broken, it actually got /easier/ to succeed at an SC the more 'complex' it got. The first errata changed it to a more fundamentally workable n successes before 3 failures, and the final version (Essentials Rule Compendium) was pretty decent.

Very helpful note. I didn't intuitively see that. Thanks!
 

pemerton

Legend
I skipped right over 3rd and 4th editions, but have just learned about skill challenges.

I've read the applicable section in the 4th edition DMG. I have a bit of an idea how I might use them in my game. But they seem to rely on a player saying "I'll use diplomacy" or some such, instead of just telling the DM what he's going to do and letting the DM call for the specific Skill Check. That is, without the guidance from the DM saying "you need 6 successful skill checks among these three skills..." players may be floundering for what they should do.
From the 4e DMG, p 74:

Begin by describing the situation and defining the challenge. . . . You describe the environment, listen to the players' responses, let them make their skill checks, and narrate the results. . . .

In a skill challenge encounter, every player character must make skill checks to contribute to the success or failure of the encounter. . . .

Sometimes, a player tells you, "I want to make a Diplomacy check to convince the duke that helping us is in his best interest. ' That’s great - the player has told you what she's doing and what skill she's using to do it. Other times, a player will say, "I want to make a Diplomacy check." In such a case, prompt the player to give more information about how the character is using that skill. Sometimes, characters do the opposite: "I want to scare the duke into helping us." It’s up to you, then, to decide which skill the character is using and call for the appropriate check. . . .

It’s also a good idea to think about other options the characters might exercise and how these might influence the course of the challenge. Characters might have access to utility powers or rituals that can help them. These might allow special uses of skills, perhaps with a bonus. Rituals in particular might grant an automatic success or remove failures from the running total.​

The main job of the GM is to manage the unfolding situation - you have to narrate the consequences of checks (even successful checks) in such a way as to make it clear why the situation has not yet resolved. If that's not clear to the players, then they don't know what it is that their PCs are trying to achieve.

The main job of the players is to engage the situation. This should involve explaining what their PCs are doing. Some of the time the appropriate ability/skill check will be self-evident. If not, it's up to the GM to adjudicate (presumably most GMs will do this in collaboration with their players).

Here's a link to an actual play report of a social challenge (in 4e). And here's a physical one.

Don't use skill challenges as written, because they are awful. They've got a massive amount of variance based on the DC and skills of the PCs, and the best possible plan for dealing with them as a player is to make sure that only the person with the best relevant skill participates (either by withdrawing from the situation, or by always "assisting"). They're also pretty tedious dice rolling affairs.
Anyone who is interested in using more formal non-combat resolution (which after all is in principle no more mysterious than formal combat resolution!) needs to address these points.

Dice-rolling: action resolution in D&D often involves dice-rolling. It is the GM's job to give some sense (either explicit, or implicit in the narrated situation) of what will happen if the check succeeds or fails. It's the player's job to martial resources (eg spells, items, other abilities) to manage the roll and tilt the odds in his/her PC's favour.

"Best relevant participant": D&D is played mostly as a group affair. In combat, we don't typically allow the fighter to duel the hobgoblin captain one-on-one while the other PCs look on. The GM takes steps to make sure all the PCs are involved. Non-combat resolution needs to be approached similarly. Eg the NPC asks the CHA 8 fighter, "So, what's your opinion on the matter?" Either the PC says nothing (looking foolish, and costing a failure) or the player rolls the dice. (A CHA 8 fighter is no more entitled to never have to talk than a low AC, low hp magician is entitled never to be attacked in combat.)

Variance: 4e offered various formal and informal ways of managing this, the most sophisticated being in a combination of DMG2 and Essentials. The 4e maths will have little relevance to 5e, but my gut feel is you'd want the typical DC to be 10 with the occasional 15, perhaps growing to 15/20 at upper levels. My maths suggests that a 75% uniform chances of success per check gives around a two-thirds chance of getting 6 successes before 3 failures. At 1st level, DC 10 should give typical chances of success around 75% (+2 from stat, +2 from prof is enough) - and players can use inspiration and other sources of advantage, buffs etc to improve on that.

If you use higher-complexity challenges at these same DCs, the players will need to work much harder to succeed (eg more spells or similar abilities to substitute for checks, more advantage, etc; 4e Essentials offered a different way of managing these higher-complexity challenges, something like a skill-challenge specific inspiration variant, but it's a bit clunky and I would't really recommend carrying it over to 5e).

A skill challenge a great DM tool to add another layer to the game that did not exist in the past. It makes you think beyond just monsters, traps and ad-hoc role playing. The hard part is making it transparent and placing it seamlessly into the setting
As a practical bit of advice, here is a useful thing I learned from [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]: when the skill challenge starts, set up a die of the appropriate size for the number of required successes, which counts up as the challenge is progressed through; and a die to record the failures (I don't have a 6-sided die marked as a d3, so I just use a d4 with it starting at 4 for zero).

I find that this helps reinforce and focus the narration, so the players have a sense of how much is still at stake, and hence can make better decisions about the deployment of resources.

EDIT: I thought maybe I should post the maths in a spoiler block, for verification purposes:

[sblock]Chance of 6 successes and no failures = .75 ^ 6 = approx .18

Chance of 6 successes and one failure = (.75 ^ 6) * (.25) * (number of distributions of 1 fail within the first 6 rolls, which = 6),
so equals .75 ^ 6 * 1.5 = approx .27

Chance of 6 successes and two failures = (.75 ^ 6) * (.25 ^ 2) * (number of distributions of 2 fails within the first 7 rolls, which = 21). This = approx .23

So the overall chance = approx .23 + .27 + .18, which is just a touch above two-thirds.[/sblock]
 
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Jensen

First Post
I use the rules set by the DM in the Major Spoilers Critical Hit podcast (4e). I use these rules in my 5e game.

The basic format:
1. Players act in initiative order;

2. On their turn, players describe their use of a skill that helps the group reach the stated goal of the challenge and make a roll;

3. Players may not use the same skill on consecutive turns, nor can they use the same skill as the player immediately before them;

4. DM describes the result of the roll.

5. The structure of the challenge is the same as 4e (6 successes before 3 failures or however difficult you want it to be).

By having the players describe the action and make the roll, it brings them into the game and allows them some creative control over the situation. Combat moves and spellcasting are allowed, but the ultimate action must be determined by a Skill roll.

Here's what I posted for my pbp group...
View attachment 5eSkillChallenge.docx
 

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