So there's pretty much no hope for a DM guide 3 with epic support.... im guessing...

[El Mahdi]

That's certainly how the 3.5 holdouts felt when 4e was coming out, and the metaphorical shoe's on the other foot, now, eh?

But, no, not quite. Because 'moving on' implies progress, rather than going backwards.

Going backwards...? I see no evidence of that. A new edition, designed with feedback from D&D's fans, fans of all editions, is most certainly a step forward...an objective step forward in WotC's approach to D&D. Whether or not the final product is better for people or not will be a subjective decision for each and every fan. But we're so far away from that finished product that declarations like the above are far too premature for any chance of being correct.

4e's been too controversial for its fans to have ever gotten the feeling of being 'favorites,' no.

Every edition has been controversial. The switch from 2E to 3E was the same, though the internet wasn't...which meant limited avenues for people to express their feelings publicly. But it was there just the same. And that's also the same as it was when switching from 1E to 2E, except there was no internet at all then. It was expressed in letters to Dragon and Dungeon, and other magazines and newsletters. It was expressed face-to-face in gaming groups, on college campuses, and in game stores. It was there, and it was just as vitriolic and emotionally irrational as what 4E fans have endured.

However, since June 2008 (and actually a little sooner), 4E has been the only D&D edition in active production. That is being the favorite. And making a blanket statement that 4E's fans haven't been able to is also an unsupportable statement. However, I'm certain there are plenty of 4E fans that did feel like they were the favorites - though they were likely those that don't frequent RPG forums. I'm certain that there are 4E fans that felt they were part of something awesome and now. And that's feeling like the favorite. Plain old probabilities are in my favor here. The opposite opinion...? Not so much.

But, whether any 4E fans felt like favorites or not, what they've endured has been no different than the situation with any other editions fans. Suffering the slings and arrows of haters is not new, nor is the level of such new concerning 4E.

Personally though, if you were some kid who's first edition of D&D was 4E, I'd have a bit more sympathy and understanding for these feelings. But I can see that you've been playing all the way back to 1E, and you're certainly not a kid. Which means you already know everything I just said about previous edition changes to be true.

Having been a gamer during those previous edition changes, how can you possibly say what you've been saying here...?

Active, yes. Malicious, well, not quite. Not malice aforethought, more depraved indifference. WotC is sacrificing the contributions 4e made to the evolution of the game, and, incidentally it's fans, to please it's former fans who have been relentlessly bashing and 'hating on' it for the last 4 years.

No, absolutely not depraved indifference. First, for this to have been depraved this would have required that 4E fans experienced harm...and no 4E fan has experienced harm due to D&D Next. Secondly, they've been far from indifferent. They have actively sought 4E fans contributions in designing 5E, have continued support of DDI 4E support (with forethough), and are actively courting 4E players (along with all other editions fans) to play 5E. Saying this is depraved indifference, or even similar to, smelling of, or having a je ne sais quoi of it, is a complete overdramatization and absolute exageration.

This is 100% a business decision based on WotC's needs and the needs of sustaining D&D as a profitable line...period. As with any other edition change, nobody is coming to gamers houses and taking away their 4E books. The ability to continue playing an edition one prefer's is not being impaired in any form. And WotC does not have any obligation to 4E fans to continue feeding them new material. 4E's time has come and gone as far as active publication is concerned, and that's just the way it is. It's natural, non-malicious, expected (no "edition" lasts forever), completely not personal, and nowhere near the realm of depraved indifference.

And in actuality, for 4E fans, things are better than they were for previous editions fans because of one thing: DDI. They've already said DDI support for 4E will continue all the way up to and after D&D Next is released. Whether that support remains in perpetuity remains to be seen, but it is a possibility. But such support during previous edition switches was entirely non-existent.

You kids don't know just how good you have it today...

It's evidence that 4e is getting different (and worse) treatment than prior eds - the same goes for it's fans, by extension. It's evidence that the edition wars are over, and 4e lost. And to the victor goes the spoils, no?

It is evidence for nothing of the sort. 4E is not getting any worse treatment than any other edition (in actuality, it's better treatment because of DDI, as I've already pointed out). There is no preset timeline for an editions publication life. And every editions life cycle is linked purely to it's sales. The lifespan of 4E is in no way linked to any intent of treatment on WotC's part. There's no way a company, especially one that belongs to a massive company like Hasbro and beholden to stockholders, is going to be allowed to make decisions based on their feelings about an edition. Or be allowed to treat a property in any manner other than one based on profit viability. Saying otherwise is simply absurd.

And edition wars are purely in the minds of those fans who feel their is some kind of competition between the different editions fandoms. The only competition and warring that exists, exists solely within the minds of a vocal minority...a minority that is pre-disposed to hating.

It's like the immortal poem by Bertolt Brecht: "What if they gave a war and nobody came?..." Even though the poem has an oppositie meaning to the one most use it for, that line still applies here: there can be no edition wars if nobody participates in them. And WotC does not start edition wars. They have certainly made mistakes that have provided fuel and ammo for them, and at times unintentionall became a catalyst; but they certainly do not start them, nor even want them.


But the thing that absolutely refutes these ideas of being "kicked to the wayside", "thrown under the bus", "sacrificing the contributions of 4E", or even exhibiting "depraved indifference" - is that WotC has taken the tact with the next edition of actively courting all fans of every edition to contribute, without excluding any editions philosophy...even to the point of wanting to not make this just another edition of D&D, but of wanting to make it simply D&D - period - no editon tag or modifiers.

Now you may disagree that WotC can pull off what they're attempting, and that's as valid an opinion as anyone elses at this point. But anyone mistaking personal feelings for fact and intention on WotC's part, despite having the right to hold any opinion they want, are objectively and irrationally wrong.

If people don't want to be a part of forming the next (and possibly final) iteration of D&D, that's their choice. But saying that WotC's attempt to make an inclusive game that can play like any edition of D&D (or at least the spirit of any edition) and appeal to fans of all of D&D's editions (hopefully), is "throwing 4E fans under the bus" or "depraved indifference"; is speaking fallaciously, spuriously, and simply objectively wrong.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Going backwards...? I see no evidence of that.

There are a number of obvious ways in which 5e's design so far has been hearkening to the past and abandoning any progress the game had been making. Character progression, for instance. In classic D&D, every class had distinct progressions, including different experience charts, so everyone leveled at different times and got wildly different things from leveling, and being multi-classed meant splitting experience and progressing in different classes in parallel. In 3e, everyone was on the same experience chart, but each class still got quite different things, though there was more structure and commonality to BAB and hit dice (everyone got one HD/level, instead of some starting with 2 and each class ceasing to gain HD at some level) and everyone gained feats and stat boosts at the same rate, while multiclassing was done level-by-level instead of in parallel. In 4e, everyone is on the same advancement chart, gaining hps, powers, stat boosts, feats, etc at the same rate for the same exp, but with features and power choices varying with class, race, theme, and multi-classing.

That's clear progress that could, ultimately, perhaps, lead to a classless system (maybe around 13th ed or something).

5e is back to the 3e model of advancement, with each class having different progressions, though it remains to be seen if they retain 3e's innovative multi-classing or go back to some sort of parallel advancement system.

Every edition has been controversial. The switch from 2E to 3E was the same, though the internet wasn't...which meant limited avenues for people to express their feelings publicly.

The 2e/3e roll was in 1999 and the internet wasn't the same, but it was certainly here. Usenet was full of 3e, there were D&D mailing lists, and this site, here, though not as smooth, was created for it! WotC had their own forums, too. Usenet isn't what it used to be, and mailing lists arent' the thing anymore, but there was and is a lot of on-line community.

There were a lot of AD&D hold-outs who rejected 3e. The important difference was that they had no one making a 2e-clone like Pathfinder for them. The closest thing was a near-parody, in 'Hackmaster.' There was no AD&D OGL to let 3pps clone the core of the system. Without ongoing support, people kept playing AD&D, but they faded away from the broader community for lack of anything new to hold their interest.

That's what made the 3e/4e split so brutal, the 3.5 holdouts got ongoing support via the OGL and Pathfinder, and stayed involved in the broader community as a result.

It was there, and it was just as vitriolic and emotionally irrational as what 4E fans have endured.

Maybe, for a bit, but it faded as the hold-outs just retreated to their insular groups for lack of anything to attract them to the broader community.

It's a business decision based on WotC's needs and the needs of sustaining D&D as a profitable line...period. As with any other edition change, nobody is coming to gamers houses and taking away their 4E books. The ability to continue playing an edition one prefer's is not being impaired in any form.

And WotC does not have any obligation to 4E fans to continue feeding them new material. 4E's time has come and gone as far as active publication is concerned, and that's just the way it is. It's natural, non-malicious, expected (no "edition" lasts forever), completely not personal, and nowhere near the realm of depraved indifference.

And in actuality, for 4E fans, things are better than they were for previous editions fans because of one thing: DDI. They've already said DDI support for 4E will continue all the way up to and after D&D Next is released. Whether that support remains in perpetuity remains to be seen, but it is a possibility. But such support during previous edition switches was entirely non-existent.

That's because there were no on-line tools. Frankly, you're really grasping at straws with that one. The OGL was very robust - and unrevocable - support for 3.5, and 4e's GSL is just the opposite, it gives WotC the ability to kill any 3pp support at will.

And edition wars are purely in the minds of those fans who feel their is some kind of competition between the different editions fandoms. The only competition and warring that exists, exists solely within the minds of a vocal minority...a minority that is pre-disposed to hating.

Yet, that minority got what they wanted: 4e is dead, in half the time it took for prior eds to run their course.

WotC has shown themselves willing to cater to the hater, so they can probably expect a lot more of the same from their (remaining) fanbase going forward.

WotC has taken the tact with the next edition of actively courting all fans of every edition to contribute, without excluding any editions philosophy...even to the point of wanting to not make this just another edition of D&D, but of wanting to make it simply D&D - period - no editon tag or modifiers.

That's the spin they're putting on it, sure. But the design direction doesn't begin to back it up.

If people don't want to be a part of forming the next (and possibly final) iteration of D&D, that's their choice.

I think most fans would /like/ to be part of it, but there's little indication from what WotC is actually doing with 5e (vs promising), that such is the case. Rather, 5e is clearly pointing at what WotC thinks the classic D&Der wants: a game something like AD&D, if a bit less convoluted and messy.

 

[Obryn]

I just want to come in on the other side and say - as a 4e fan - I understand how WotC is neglecting 4e during this last year, but I have neither bitterness nor regret.

I think 4e is a largely-complete game right now, with a few lacunae. The most glaring of these is competent epic support, but that's not really on my wishlist. IMO, Essentials filled the other major hole - that is, a continuum of class complexity. Otherwise, I like the monsters I build nowadays more than the ones in the various monster books, I'm adapting 2e Dark Sun material easily, I still have access to the offline tools, and I basically feel like I have enough material now to play for years and never use it all.

So no, I know that each edition needs to move on in some way after about 4-5 years given the realities of WotC's business. And if they move on without me, so be it - I'm sure Next will be a perfectly good game in its own right even if it's not my favorite. WotC owes me nothing here - just like they didn't owe 3.5 fans when it was time for that edition to sunset.

-O

 

[El Mahdi]

There are a number of obvious ways in which 5e's design so far has been hearkening to the past and abandoning any progress the game had been making. Character progression, for instance. In classic D&D, every class had distinct progressions, including different experience charts, so everyone leveled at different times and got wildly different things from leveling, and being multi-classed meant splitting experience and progressing in different classes in parallel. In 3e, everyone was on the same experience chart, but each class still got quite different things, though there was more structure and commonality to BAB and hit dice (everyone got one HD/level, instead of some starting with 2 and each class ceasing to gain HD at some level) and everyone gained feats and stat boosts at the same rate, while multiclassing was done level-by-level instead of in parallel. In 4e, everyone is on the same advancement chart, gaining hps, powers, stat boosts, feats, etc at the same rate for the same exp, but with features and power choices varying with class, race, theme, and multi-classing.

That's clear progress that could, ultimately, perhaps, lead to a classless system (maybe around 13th ed or something).

5e is back to the 3e model of advancement, with each class having different progressions, though it remains to be seen if they retain 3e's innovative multi-classing or go back to some sort of parallel advancement system.

Harkening to the past is not going backwards as concerns progress. Innovation can come from anywhere and be progress, even inspiration from the past. And there is no evidence yet that 5E is not going to progress D&D's design. There's too little of D&D Next formed yet for anyone to make such claims. Making such claims is tantamount to seeing a few connected dots out of a hundred, and saying one knows what the final picture is. It simply isn't possible.

And just because D&D Next is using aspects of 3E, does not mean it's exclusively 3E or anti-4E. D&D Next is using aspects of all editions. That means there is apsects or concepts of 4E in it, as well as every other edition. And stating the contrary is simply not true.

The 2e/3e roll was in 1999 and the internet wasn't the same, but it was certainly here. Usenet was full of 3e, there were D&D mailing lists, and this site, here, though not as smooth, was created for it! WotC had their own forums, too. Usenet isn't what it used to be, and mailing lists arent' the thing anymore, but there was and is a lot of on-line community.

There were a lot of AD&D hold-outs who rejected 3e. The important difference was that they had no one making a 2e-clone like Pathfinder for them. The closest thing was a near-parody, in 'Hackmaster.' There was no AD&D OGL to let 3pps clone the core of the system. Without ongoing support, people kept playing AD&D, but they faded away from the broader community for lack of anything new to hold their interest.

That's what made the 3e/4e split so brutal, the 3.5 holdouts got ongoing support via the OGL and Pathfinder, and stayed involved in the broader community as a result.

That "brutality" had nothing to do with WotC (or TSR). It was purely a product of the fans. Whether it was particularly brutal or not because of that, WotC is not throwing anybody under a bus. Again, saying the contrary is simply not true.

Maybe, for a bit, but it faded as the hold-outs just retreated to their insular groups for lack of anything to attract them to the broader community.

Balderdash! This kind of stuff certainly peaks around the release of an edition, but it's always present and never "fades into the background". If it did, we wouldn't have the consistent stream of threads about edition warring that we have, year in and year out.

C'mon Man...

That's because there were no on-line tools. Frankly, you're really grasping at straws with that one. The OGL was very robust - and unrevocable - support for 3.5, and 4e's GSL is just the opposite, it gives WotC the ability to kill any 3pp support at will.

Since when is the potential to throw fans under the bus, the same as actually doing so...? DDI is active, ongoing, real support for 4E...something that 3E fans did not have in the run-up to 4E. And 4E does have 3pp support, and it is support that can (and probably will) continue. Even if WotC revokes all licenses for 4E, 3pp can still make 4E material using the OGL...they just can't say it's for 4E. But you and I both know that players will understand that is the game it was made to be used with. If there's a market for it, 3pp support of 4E will continue. It's silly to think it won't.

As for the OGL and the 3E/4E switch, the OGL was far from something that WotC wanted in existence when 4E was made. It's more than obvious that if WotC could have legally gotten rid of the OGL, they would have. The management team that led to greenlighting 4E, all but outright blamed the demise of 3E on the OGL. And they did not support 3E in any way, shape, or form when they released 4E...OGL or otherwise. But 4E is still recieving this support, even though they've started on 5E. That's a very large difference, and a comparison that is valid and far from "grasping at straws".

4E is recieving unprecedented levels of support compared to what previous editions did when a new edition began. And that's great! It's one more sign that this time around, WotC is intent on getting it right. And that's a win-win for WotC and their fans.

Yet, that minority got what they wanted: 4e is dead, in half the time it took for prior eds to run their course.

WotC has shown themselves willing to cater to the hater, so they can probably expect a lot more of the same from their (remaining) fanbase going forward.

WotC is not making a new edition because of the clamoring of the Haters, nor are they catering to anything but their own bottom line. They are making a new edition purely based on sales of 4E. If you think that potential 4E fans didn't buy 4E because of this clamoring, then you've been drinking a bit too much of the cool aid. The clamoring of the haters didn't have a thing to do with the end of active 4E printing...sales did.

That's the spin they're putting on it, sure. But the design direction doesn't begin to back it up.

Really...? And where's your evidence? I can easily see the bits and pieces of previous editions, and I do no see any one specific edition defining the direction of 5E. And I haven't once been talking about spin in my posts, but only what I've seen of 5E so far. And so far, they are behaving consistently with the design goals they set forth.

If one can't see the 4E elements in the design of 5E so far, then one is either not looking, or just doesn't want to see. It's amazing how many gamers will complain of "haters", and then when something involves their own favorite edition, do the exact same thing that so infuriates them when it comes from others.

I think most fans would /like/ to be part of it, but there's little indication from what WotC is actually doing with 5e (vs promising), that such is the case. Rather, 5e is clearly pointing at what WotC thinks the classic D&Der wants: a game something like AD&D, if a bit less convoluted and messy.

Again, complete Balderdash. If that's what one is seeing about 5E, then that's what one wants to see about 5E. We're so early in the formation of this iteration that it's impossible to even guess at the final form. But saying that there aren't any 4E influences, concepts, and mechanics in 5E is just out and out false. There are elements of every edition in there, and all of them contributing to the direction the design is taking.

So how about trying this: instead of sitting on the sidelines and taking shots at 5E, get in the game and be a part of guiding it's direction. Or just enjoy playing 4E or whatever edition you prefer, and stop thinking that the World and big bad WotC is out to get you and your game...

Or do you feel doing either of those would steal away your chance of telling the world "see, I told you so" when 5E comes out...?