Pathfinder 1E So what do you think is wrong with Pathfinder? Post your problems and we will fix it.

[EnglishLanguage]

A sensible wizard will memorize the best spell he can (probably not Passwall unless he knew this scenario was coming), or save it until he actually needs it, and wait a few minutes while someone whose resources aren't limited takes care of eminently solvable problems like locked doors and walls without them.

Mind explaining how a Rogue gets through a solid brick wall in less than 1 minute?

 

[billd91]

AFAIC, leaving slots open is a rule which, like crafting and certain other segments of the world, no one is aware of precisely because it was not intended for player use and thus was hidden in fine print in the magic chapter and rarely discussed. Those elements are more to represent what the court wizard or magic shop owner does, the NPC who isn't under the same constraints as an adventurer.

I have no idea where you get that idea. It's not hidden in fine print at all. It's specifically mentioned as an option in the rules that describe how to handle preparing spells - rules well worth a DM and spellcaster player knowing.

For someone facing life or death with as few spell slots as the wizard, leaving a slot untapped is potentially suicidal. Get in a battle, and you might run out of useful spells, at which point you're a glorified commoner. A sensible wizard will memorize the best spell he can (probably not Passwall unless he knew this scenario was coming), or save it until he actually needs it, and wait a few minutes while someone whose resources aren't limited takes care of eminently solvable problems like locked doors and walls without them.

Aside from the hyperbole of a wizard being a glorified commoner, this is an issue of managing spell slots in general and is why quite a few wizard PCs I've seen carry around a crossbow or offensive wands. It's well within the power of the average spellcaster to minimize the dangers of this particular issue and at least have some (if not optimal) offensive capability - assuming they don't subscribe too heavily to the 15 minute adventuring day and nova every encounter. But that's a different player strategy problem...

I would say that the strategy of leaving a slot open is neither a bad one nor an auto-win one. A lot will depend on the context of the campaign. In a low-intensity dungeon without many denizens (but perhaps a lot of traps) then I think it's a pretty good strategy. In a situation with a lot of fights, then it's not so good because the caster will rarely have time to really use those empty slots and the opportunity cost of having them is a lot higher. What I reject is the notion that this is some "hidden" option or NPC-based option. It's neither of those.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Mind explaining how a Rogue gets through a solid brick wall in less than 1 minute?

Probably the same way you'd think a wizard would. Scroll of Passwall. In practice, I think a rogue is probably almost as likely to have one of those as a wizard, and UMD checks don't fail often at this point.

Then again, if we're talking a combat rogue with solid damage, how long will it take to just smash through the wall? Depends on the wall of course. A thick stone wall probably is not doable in a minute, but if we're talking a house or something and the noise and property damage aren't at issue, it's possible even for a non-martial character like the rogue.

To ask the converse question: how serious of a challenge is a wall for a mid- to high-level character of any class? Not very, in and of itself.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I have no idea where you get that idea. It's not hidden in fine print at all. It's specifically mentioned as an option in the rules that describe how to handle preparing spells - rules well worth a DM and spellcaster player knowing.
...
What I reject is the notion that this is some "hidden" option or NPC-based option. It's neither of those.

It's not mentioned in the class description. How closely to most people read the magic chapter? I see players who don't know details from that text all the time. It's definitely one of the most frequently used references during play.

The fact that I was aware of this option before this discussion to me is evidence of my encyclopedic knowledge of these rules, but I don't think I've ever seen it used in play. It may or may not have been intended for NPCs, but in practice, as even the first post on this topic noted, it's quite common for a player to have no idea that it exists.

 

[EnglishLanguage]

Probably the same way you'd think a wizard would. Scroll of Passwall. In practice, I think a rogue is probably almost as likely to have one of those as a wizard, and UMD checks don't fail often at this point.

Ah, so the Rogue beats out the Wizard by playing a pretend-Wizard. Welp, you sure showed me.

Then again, if we're talking a combat rogue with solid damage, how long will it take to just smash through the wall? Depends on the wall of course. A thick stone wall probably is not doable in a minute, but if we're talking a house or something and the noise and property damage aren't at issue, it's possible even for a non-martial character like the rogue.

So...longer than a minute then.

To ask the converse question: how serious of a challenge is a wall for a mid- to high-level character of any class? Not very, in and of itself.

Considering by your admission, it's difficult for people who aren't Wizards or playing pretend-Wizard to get past, pretty decent challenge apparently.

But really, nearly all OOC situations have the same issue. Give the Wizard one minute and he can bypass the entire problem with a single spell. Unless the noncaster took his entire feat chain to be a complete expert at the situation in question(and therefore has about a 60% chance of taking care of the problem), he better hope there's a Wizard in the party.

 

[EnglishLanguage]

It's not mentioned in the class description. How closely to most people read the magic chapter? I see players who don't know details from that text all the time. It's definitely one of the most frequently used references during play.

The fact that I was aware of this option before this discussion to me is evidence of my encyclopedic knowledge of these rules, but I don't think I've ever seen it used in play. It may or may not have been intended for NPCs, but in practice, as even the first post on this topic noted, it's quite common for a player to have no idea that it exists.

Which doesn't detract at all from the fact that it's still an option in the game and is fair to bring into discussions about the game.

 

[Dungeonman]

Ah, so the Rogue beats out the Wizard by playing a pretend-Wizard. Welp, you sure showed me.

Oh, c'mon...
1) parity between classes is about enjoyment. If you say the Wizard outfuns the Rogue, fine. If you're talking about one "beating" the other, that sounds like envy in competition, which is kind of distorted to me
2) Wizards don't have ownership or monopoly over magic, not in the D&D setting as I see it. A scroll-using rogue doesn't have to be a pretend-Wizard anymore than a computer hacker is a pretend software developer just because the computer hacker buys hacking software
3) In high fantasy settings, where magic is prevalent in different forms, I think a Rogue would be happy to have access to extra tools to be a better Rogue. A Rogue that refused to use a scroll because he doesn't want to be a pretend-Wizard is like a technophobe purist

 

[Ahnehnois]

Ah, so the Rogue beats out the Wizard by playing a pretend-Wizard. Welp, you sure showed me.

Everyone's playing pretend-wizard and pretend-cleric and pretend-fighter and pretend-rogue. This is not news.

So...longer than a minute then.

Not for a house wall. For a thicker wall, I suppose so.

Considering by your admission, it's difficult for people who aren't Wizards or playing pretend-Wizard to get past, pretty decent challenge apparently.

But there are no such people. There are no level 10 characters that don't have access to voluminous magical abilities. Some people have a fortune of treasure plus BAB and skills, and some people have a fortune of treasure plus a few extra spells. Either way, the treasure is central to the game and consists mostly of magic items. Again, this is not news.

I'm sure you're similarly dismissive of wizards or clerics who try to play "pretend-fighter" through buffs and summons. After all, it's very difficult for someone who isn't a fighter or a "pretend-fighter" to get through a battle, which is rather more important than getting through a wall.

But really, nearly all OOC situations have the same issue. Give the Wizard one minute and he can bypass the entire problem with a single spell. Unless the noncaster took his entire feat chain to be a complete expert at the situation in question(and therefore has about a 60% chance of taking care of the problem), he better hope there's a Wizard in the party.

I'm not seeing anything is this vague scenario we're discussing where it would even present a meaningful benefit to have a spellcaster of any sort in the party.

Which doesn't detract at all from the fact that it's still an option in the game and is fair to bring into discussions about the game.

Sure, that's why we're discussing it. As I see it, leaving high-level spell slots open is generally a suboptimal decision that will reduce the character's effectiveness and increase the chances of his death. Sometimes it can work, but if we're talking about "stuff that makes a wizard powerful" this is not on my list of stuff.

 

[billd91]

Ah, so the Rogue beats out the Wizard by playing a pretend-Wizard. Welp, you sure showed me.

This is different from the wizard using his spells to play pretend rogue?

 

[billd91]

It's not mentioned in the class description. How closely to most people read the magic chapter? I see players who don't know details from that text all the time. It's definitely one of the most frequently used references during play.

The fact that I was aware of this option before this discussion to me is evidence of my encyclopedic knowledge of these rules, but I don't think I've ever seen it used in play. It may or may not have been intended for NPCs, but in practice, as even the first post on this topic noted, it's quite common for a player to have no idea that it exists.

That's the player's deficiency - not the rule's or the option's. There are probably too many players who don't delve into the rules and leave options off the table, so to speak, that are easily within their grasp. I have players who have left slots open in an effort to respond to adventuring needs - they're rules-savvy players, yes. More savvy than the average. But they're also game- and table-savvy and play well enough to be useful without making any one else feel useless. In other words, players who use their knowledge of the rules to enhance the game as a whole rather than try to hit an auto-win button or just help themselves.