Pathfinder 1E So what do you think is wrong with Pathfinder? Post your problems and we will fix it.

[Ahnehnois]

It really doesn't. I've yet to throw a Fireball with my 4e Fighter, or have him do anything outright magical.

But you've had one cast a cure spell (healing surge) on himself, yes? And use a smite attack? And perhaps other magical things, ranging from teleportation to mind control?

 

[Wicht]

I do have to question how a thread about fixing issues people have with Pathfinder became a thread about the superiority of 4e? If 4e fixes PFRPG for you then play 4e and your problem is fixed.

 

[Ahnehnois]

It really doesn't. I've yet to throw a Fireball with my 4e Fighter, or have him do anything outright magical.

But you've had one cast a cure spell (healing surge) on himself, yes? And use a smite attack? And perhaps other magical things, ranging from teleportation to mind control?

I believe Pemerton's point is that 4e martial characters don't gain versatility and power in great leaps and bounds by taking wizard levels or by picking up a bunch of wands. 4e fighters, rogues, and so on are awesome just by doing martial stuff.

I believe my point is that they aren't just doing martial stuff. Taking the old-school wands and potions of CLW and transmuting them into healing surges doesn't make them "martial stuff". It's basically just refluffed healing wands/potions.

If you really wanted to, how hard would it be to pretend that the magic items in PF didn't exist, and that you were just picking up handy tricks and enhancements by defeating enemies?

Also, it's not a question of everyone being "awesome"; it's more the Leveling Down objection; everyone is equally mediocre, as the really good stuff by and large isn't even there.

 

[EnglishLanguage]

But you've had one cast a cure spell (healing surge) on himself, yes?

Healing surges aren't cure spells, so no.

And use a smite attack?

Paladins and Blackguards get smites.

And perhaps other magical things, ranging from teleportation to mind control?

Those are Wizard abilities, Fighter's don't have teleports or mind control.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Healing surges aren't cure spells, so no.

Using a wand or scroll with UMD isn't casting a spell either; it's using resources that are part of the rogue class (or, increasingly in PF, of any character, as you've noted). What exactly is your point?

 

[EnglishLanguage]

Using a wand or scroll with UMD isn't casting a spell either; it's using resources that are part of the rogue class (or, increasingly in PF, of any character, as you've noted).

It is casting a spell through some medium though. Healing surges isn't magical unless it's explicitly being used from a spell cast.

What exactly is your point?

Mostly that it's becoming increasingly clear you have no idea what you're talking.

 

[Ahnehnois]

It is casting a spell through some medium though. Healing surges isn't magical unless it's explicitly being used from a spell cast.

Directly comparing the two actions, one a fighter or rogue character picking up a wand and using it on himself, and two a fighter or rogue using a healing surge, the healing surge is a greater departure from the class's role and abilities, mechanically more similar to the resource management and access associated with spells, and less easy to rationalize from an in-world perspective. It is much closer to the character actually casting a spell. You simply can't refer to a character using magic items as "playing some other class" without acknowledging this.

But even setting all that aside, so what? If we look at some broader context behind this one very arbitrary test of a character having to get through a thick stone wall and having at least one minute and six seconds, but no more than that, the rogue and his nonmagical brethren are going to come out fine.

 

[Umbran]

Of course it does, to a previously unheard of extent. Power sources, healing surges, and inherent bonuses are all examples of non-casters being made into casters, just in a different way.

I think that's a flawed way to view it.

It isn't that non-casters have been turned into casters, or vice versa. It is *both*, and neither. Yes, non-casters get to do things we used to think of only for casters, but it goes the other way too - casters do things that we used to think non-casters could do. The generalized (AEDU) power structure shifts the differentiation between "caster" and "non-caster" to fluff, rather than mechanics. They are all just *characters*.

It used to be that caster/non-caster was a meaningful functional distinction, but in 4e it mostly isn't. The meaningful distinction was instead shifted into the roles of Defender, Controller, Striker, and Leader. Continuing to hold to or be concerned with the caster/non-caster divide in 4e is like expecting to find pith on an apple - simply nonsensical.

 

[Ahnehnois]

It isn't that non-casters have been turned into casters, or vice versa. It is *both*, and neither.
...
It used to be that caster/non-caster was a meaningful functional distinction, but in 4e it mostly isn't.
...
Continuing to hold to or be concerned with the caster/non-caster divide in 4e is like expecting to find pith on an apple - simply nonsensical.

I don't particularly disagree with any of that, but using 4e as an example to reinforce that (apparently inapplicable) distinction was the argument that I was responding to.

That is to say, 4e is not a valid example for how PF or any other version of D&D would analyze the relative capacities of magical and nonmagical character abilities. Saying "well a 4e rogue can do X and Y without using wizard spells so why should a PF rogue have to pick up a wand to do X" is not accurate or pertinent.

 

[EnglishLanguage]

Directly comparing the two actions, one a fighter or rogue character picking up a wand and using it on himself, and two a fighter or rogue using a healing surge,

Aren't comparable ebcause one is explicitly stated as being magic and the other isn't.

You simply can't refer to a character using magic items as "playing some other class" without acknowledging this.

I can absolutely call a Rogue who plays by using scrolls/wands a pretend-Wizard because that's exactly what he is.

If we look at some broader context behind this one very arbitrary test of a character having to get through a thick stone wall and having at least one minute and six seconds, but no more than that, the rogue and his nonmagical brethren are going to come out fine.

That was just a single example. As long as it's still level 3-4, the Rogue and his friends will be passable(except compared to the Druid, but that class is another can of worms). After that, smart casters in general just auto-win noncombat situations and completely crap all over combat with their save-or-dies and save-or-suck spells.