Pathfinder 1E So what do you think is wrong with Pathfinder? Post your problems and we will fix it.

[Alzrius]

So I got to thinking about the idea that scrolls are so cheap that a wizard can make as many of them as necessary for an insignificant cost. I decided to run the numbers using a few base assumptions and see what I came out with. The results were surprising.

First, the setup: I decided that a wizard would make two scrolls of each level he could cast, at every level from levels 1 through 10. Second, I'm presuming that he uses all of his scrolls on each adventure, and that he goes on three adventures at each level (getting the requisite four encounters per adventure, for a total of twelve encounters to level...we're rounding down from the presumption that you need 13.33 level-appropriate encounters to gain a new level).

So in other words, at 1st level, a wizard will make two level one scrolls before each adventure, for three adventures, for a total of six scrolls. He'll do the same thing at 2nd level. At 3rd level, he'll make two level one scrolls and two level two scrolls before each adventure, for three adventures, and then do the same thing at level 4, etc.

Now, I'm also presuming that the PC Wealth by Level entries at each level are successive, rather than discrete. That is, I don't think that the GM makes sure that each PC has the listed amount of gear/treasure at each level regardless of their expenditures to date, but rather gives them the difference from one level to another, which they expend as they see fit. So a PC going from 2nd-level (with 1,000 gp of stuff) to 3rd-level (when he should have a total of 3,000 gp of stuff), is going to earn 2,000 gp of treasure over the course of 2nd level.

With that said, let's run the numbers:

1st level = [2*(12.5)]*3 = 75 gp
2nd level = [2*(12.5)]*3 = 75 gp
3rd level = [2*(12.5) + 2*(75)]*3 = 525 gp
4th level = [2*(12.5) + 2*(75)]*3 = 525 gp
5th level = [2*(12.5) + 2*(75) + 2*(187.5)]*3 = 1,650 gp
6th level = [2*(12.5) + 2*(75) + 2*(187.5)]*3 = 1,650 gp
7th level = [2*(12.5) + 2*(75) + 2*(187.5) + 2*(350)]*3 = 3,750 gp
8th level = [2*(12.5) + 2*(75) + 2*(187.5) + 2*(350)]*3 = 3,750 gp
9th level = [2*(12.5) + 2*(75) + 2*(187.5) + 2*(350) + 2*(562.5)]*3 = 7,125 gp
10th level = [2*(12.5) + 2*(75) + 2*(187.5) + 2*(350) + 2*(562.5)]*3 = 7,125 gp

Total cost: 26,250 gp

At 10th level, a PC should have 62,000 gp. Spending the above amount on scrolls over the PC's life means that he's sinking a significant 42% of his wealth into making these scrolls! Even leaving aside the not-inconsiderable Douglas Adams jokes that we can make about this number, that's self-evidently cost-prohibitive, since it will eat deeply into the wizard's ability to buy other gear (such as the big six).

While there were several assumptions made here, they're baseline enough that I think we can say that this takes a big bite out of the idea that a wizard will always have enough scrolls that he'll, for all intents and purposes, never run out of spells.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

One smaller complaint I have about Pathfinder, that the new splat book helped me notice, is how absurdly situational a number of major things are. For example.

While these things may not make sense for player characters, who find themselves in a wide variety of situations, they might make more sense for NPCs who find themselves in similar situations more frequently. It's still a lot of rules to dedicate toward something that isn't going to have much effect on actual gameplay, though.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

In my game I make the spellcasters source their own components. As I said before the common ones are easy enough to find, and they might be able to buy them in an all-inclusive pouch. Eventually they will start to run out, though, and restocking them isn't something that will always be easy. They can't just stroll into any little village and buy refills for components that don't have other everyday uses (like salt).

...You know that before the advent of refrigeration, salt was used as a preservative as well as a flavor-enhancer, right? I mean, salt was a lot rarer before the industrial world started manufacturing it, so it might still fall under your 'difficult to find' category, but...well, just wondering at your choice of 'doesn't have everyday uses.'

Anyhow, making material components difficult to find might create a hassle for casters, but any caster is just one feat away from solving 99% of that problem. Heck, sorcerers get it for free!

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Now, I'm also presuming that the PC Wealth by Level entries at each level are successive, rather than discrete. That is, I don't think that the GM makes sure that each PC has the listed amount of gear/treasure at each level regardless of their expenditures to date, but rather gives them the difference from one level to another, which they expend as they see fit. So a PC going from 2nd-level (with 1,000 gp of stuff) to 3rd-level (when he should have a total of 3,000 gp of stuff), is going to earn 2,000 gp of treasure over the course of 2nd level.

DMs are explicitly advised to do just the opposite -- run periodic 'wealth audits' to keep each PC more-or-less at WBL.

...Unless PF changed that particular guideline?

 

[gamerprinter]

At 10th level, a PC should have 62,000 gp. Spending the above amount on scrolls over the PC's life means that he's sinking a significant 42% of his wealth into making these scrolls! Even leaving aside the not-inconsiderable Douglas Adams jokes that we can make about this number, that's self-evidently cost-prohibitive, since it will eat deeply into the wizard's ability to buy other gear (such as the big six).

Speaking of fixing Pathfinder, Rite Publishing (and Wicht above as author) kind of fixed the 'scroll issue' for wizards, at least in regards to one specific archetype for wizard, Onmyoji (for the Kaidan setting of Japanese horror PFRPG) - especially for the following class feature which replaces Scribe Scroll:


Origami Caster
The onmyoji replaces all material components for a spell costing less than 5 gp, with folded paper. These origami arrangements are prepared by the onmyoji each morning when he prepares his spells. Moreover, each day, when preparing spells, by expending an amount of arcane materials worth 25 gp x the spell level, the onmyoji may prepare one special spell paper, using any spell he knows. This one spell is in addition to any spells he might otherwise be able to cast that day. These specially prepared spells do not lose their potency after 24 hours and can be used by any onmyoji as a standard action.


This ability replaces Scribe Scroll.

This makes "scribing scrolls" significantly cheaper over the course of a wizard's lifetime career.

Granted its 3PP, but I'd rather play an Onmyoji, than a bog standard wizard any day.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Burn Rider Barbarian- A barbarian class archetype that's focused on being mounted and taking fire damage.

Blackjack Fighter- A Fighter archetype based on around teamwork feats and having more Blackjack Fighters in the party.

Contemplative Monks(Dwarf Only)- Monks who give up Stunning Fist and Dwarf racial traits to have reduced effect against things that specifically target Dwarves.

Siege Gunner- A Gunslinger archetype focused around siege weaponry.

Pure Legion Enforcer- An anti-divinity prestige class that makes it incredibly difficult for divine allies to buff or heal you.

I can't think of too many situations I'd actually use many of these things in.

...Holy cow...such bizarre specificity...there are no words.

Someone please tell me that these options were at least published in a DM's splatbook? Please?

 

[Wicht]

Total cost: 26,250 gp

And that's before you get into the cost of making wands.

Seriously, a set of lock-picks that adds +4 to a disable device check is only 1600 gp (800 gp to craft) I believe. A wand with knock on it at 3rd level CL is going to be 4500 gp (2250 to craft). I know among my players which they would decide to spend the money for, and then they would give it to the Rogue.

 

[Dungeonman]

Burn Rider Barbarian- A barbarian class archetype that's focused on being mounted and taking fire damage.

Blackjack Fighter- A Fighter archetype based on around teamwork feats and having more Blackjack Fighters in the party.

Contemplative Monks(Dwarf Only)- Monks who give up Stunning Fist and Dwarf racial traits to have reduced effect against things that specifically target Dwarves.

Siege Gunner- A Gunslinger archetype focused around siege weaponry.

Pure Legion Enforcer- An anti-divinity prestige class that makes it incredibly difficult for divine allies to buff or heal you.

I can't think of too many situations I'd actually use many of these things in.

...Holy cow...such bizarre specificity...there are no words.

As a class representing multiple characters in a game setting, ya, it's strangely specific. However, as a class representing a unique individual (PC or NPC or hireling), which I think is how they could've sold it, it's kinda cool. Multiple Gambits would be weird, but one Gambit with exploding playing cards is a cool schtick. There may not be so many Siege Gunners running around, but the party might want to hire one Seige Gunner for a short while.

 

[EnglishLanguage]

I can see them being used for certain settings and stuff, I'm just annoyed how really narrow the focus on those are.

The only one of those I'd never use for any reason is the Pure Legion Enforcer, mostly because I can't think of any situation where making it more difficult to heal and buff me helps my party at all.

 

[EnglishLanguage]

Speaking of fixing Pathfinder, Rite Publishing (and Wicht above as author) kind of fixed the 'scroll issue' for wizards, at least in regards to one specific archetype for wizard, Onmyoji (for the Kaidan setting of Japanese horror PFRPG) - especially for the following class feature which replaces Scribe Scroll:


Origami Caster
The onmyoji replaces all material components for a spell costing less than 5 gp, with folded paper. These origami arrangements are prepared by the onmyoji each morning when he prepares his spells. Moreover, each day, when preparing spells, by expending an amount of arcane materials worth 25 gp x the spell level, the onmyoji may prepare one special spell paper, using any spell he knows. This one spell is in addition to any spells he might otherwise be able to cast that day. These specially prepared spells do not lose their potency after 24 hours and can be used by any onmyoji as a standard action.


This ability replaces Scribe Scroll.

This makes "scribing scrolls" significantly cheaper over the course of a wizard's lifetime career.

Granted its 3PP, but I'd rather play an Onmyoji, than a bog standard wizard any day.

That is a pretty interesting Wizard archetype, might have to look into that if I ever get around to playing a Wizard.

And honestly, a lot of times, something being labeled "third party" for Pathfinder makes me interested because a number of third party material(mostly stuff made by Dreamscarred) is reliably balanced and still fun(like Psionics).