So, what, exactly, is a turn?

[Rune]

I have searched every vaguely relevant section of the Rules Compendium for the answer to this question, but have yet to see one that specifically answers it:

Is a turn a segment of time on the initiative cycle, or is it a phase specific to a creature who has an initiative on that cycle?

That is to say, if multiple creatures go at the same time on the initiative cycle (either because the DM rolled initiative for the entire group, or because at least one creature delayed to go at the same time as another), do they each have a turn that happens to happen at the same time (and are they then each subject to an opportunity attack from one character, if, say, rushing past it), or do they all share a single turn (and are therefore only subject to one such attack for the entire group)?

 

[OnlineDM]

They each get a turn. A turn is a single creature's chance to take its normal allotment of actions during a round (usually a standard, a move and a minor action). If you have a horde of 20 goblins all acting on the same initiative count, they each get a turn. That means that if they all run past your PC, your PC gets an opportunity attack on each of them (one per goblin turn).

Technically speaking, each goblin acts individually, but most DMs will run them as a horde. So, if you have two different goblins that each move to next to a PC in order to create a flank and then they both attack with combat advantage, technically what happens is that the first goblin moves into position and then uses his standard action to ready an attack to go off as soon as the other goblin gives him a flank. That's because they have their own turns.

 

[OnlineDM]

By the way, the best explanation of this from the Rules Compendium is at the top of page 190, number 5: Take turns:

In initiative order, every combatant takes a turn, which includes various actions.

 

[WalterKovacs]

According to the RC, on a creature's turn it gets a standard action, move action and minor action.

Therefore, a turn is the time where a single creature acts during a round. Technically speaking, each creature acts during it's own turn, even if the various turns occur at nearly the same time. Even if a group shares an initiative count, that does not mean they share a single turn, as each gets it's own turn and allotment of actions.

Now, this does mean that some things a DM does may be technically wrong. (i.e. both enemies move into a flank before either attacks). They can technically do this via readying actions, but they would have to remember not to use a minor action afterwards, or use an interupt in the following round, etc.

EDIT:

There are some situations where someone may be acting during someone else's turn, but that will involve interupts/reactions ... which includes readying an action. If, for example, you are ranged character, you can ready an attack to be triggered based on an enemy attacking you with a melee attack. Since that would occur on the attacker's turn (unless it got an out of turn attack somehow) you would be able to use your readied action during it's turn, and thus avoid giving that creature a chance to make an opportunity attack.

 

[Rune]

They each get a turn. A turn is a single creature's chance to take its normal allotment of actions during a round (usually a standard, a move and a minor action). If you have a horde of 20 goblins all acting on the same initiative count, they each get a turn. That means that if they all run past your PC, your PC gets an opportunity attack on each of them (one per goblin turn).

Technically speaking, each goblin acts individually, but most DMs will run them as a horde. So, if you have two different goblins that each move to next to a PC in order to create a flank and then they both attack with combat advantage, technically what happens is that the first goblin moves into position and then uses his standard action to ready an attack to go off as soon as the other goblin gives him a flank. That's because they have their own turns.

That's how I would rule it, but...

By the way, the best explanation of this from the Rules Compendium is at the top of page 190, number 5: Take turns:

The problem is, I can read that both ways. "Every" does not necessarily mean "each."

According to the RC, on a creature's turn it gets a standard action, move action and minor action.

Therefore, a turn is the time where a single creature acts during a round. Technically speaking, each creature acts during it's own turn, even if the various turns occur at nearly the same time. Even if a group shares an initiative count, that does not mean they share a single turn, as each gets it's own turn and allotment of actions.

Now, this does mean that some things a DM does may be technically wrong. (i.e. both enemies move into a flank before either attacks). They can technically do this via readying actions, but they would have to remember not to use a minor action afterwards, or use an interupt in the following round, etc.

EDIT:

There are some situations where someone may be acting during someone else's turn, but that will involve interupts/reactions ... which includes readying an action. If, for example, you are ranged character, you can ready an attack to be triggered based on an enemy attacking you with a melee attack. Since that would occur on the attacker's turn (unless it got an out of turn attack somehow) you would be able to use your readied action during it's turn, and thus avoid giving that creature a chance to make an opportunity attack.

As I said, I would tend to rule it this way, but I simply cannot tell from the RAW if this is definitely the case--and it matters, because this interpretation leaves out the possibility of delaying an action with the specific intent to overwhelm a single opponent.

 

[OnlineDM]

Well, yes, every does mean each here, but okay if you disagree.

As for your last point, I don't understand. What in this interpretation leaves out the possibility of delaying an action with the specific intent to overwhelm a single opponent? Also, do you mean delay (as in postpone your entire turn until later in the round) or ready (as in use your standard action now to set up a triggered action for later in the round)?

 

[WalterKovacs]

Delaying causes you to take your turn later, and does not allow you to start your turn "inside" someone elses turn.

Readying an action does allow for 'nesting' one action inside someone else's turn. So, for example, if the enemies are worried about a fighter stopping them via OA's, they could, for example, ALL ready actions to charge certain targets behind the fighter with a specific trigger. If this trigger was for the 'last' monster to do something (i.e. there are 5 monsters, monster 1 through 4 ready charges on the wizard and cleric who are behind the fighter, and the trigger is when monster 5 tries to move past the fighter) then, it would take place during monster 5's turn, and thus if the fighter attacked monster 5, he wouldn't get to OA monsters 1 through 4. However, that would use up the immediate actions of monsters 1 through 4 for the round.

Another version of this would be setting the trigger for one of the fighter's actions (i.e. attacking or moving) in which case the fighter can't make OAs at all because it's hs own turn.

The PCs could use similar tactics against a monster to avoid OAs, but it does mean giving up immediate actions in order to use your readied actions. And, in those cases, you aren't actually taking a turn within a turn, merely resolving an immediate interupt inside of someone elses turn.

There are also some leaders (PC or monster) that can allow multiple allies to move/attack/etc on their turn, that would also take advantage of the 1 OA per turn restriction.

And, ultimately, every creature gets a turn, and on that turn they get their assortment of actions. The only time multiple creatures share a turn are in situations like a swarm (where it's a single "creature" composed of many creatures) or in the case of a ranger or sentinel and their animal companion, etc.

 

[Camelot]

I have searched every vaguely relevant section of the Rules Compendium for the answer to this question, but have yet to see one that specifically answers it:

Is a turn a segment of time on the initiative cycle, or is it a phase specific to a creature who has an initiative on that cycle?

That is to say, if multiple creatures go at the same time on the initiative cycle (either because the DM rolled initiative for the entire group, or because at least one creature delayed to go at the same time as another), do they each have a turn that happens to happen at the same time (and are they then each subject to an opportunity attack from one character, if, say, rushing past it), or do they all share a single turn (and are therefore only subject to one such attack for the entire group)?

Yes, if you roll one initiative check for a bunch of goblins and send them all walking past the same PC on their turn, that PC gets an opportunity attack against each of them because they each get an individual turn. Rolling initiative for a group is just a shortcut that DMs are advised to use.

 

[Rune]

Well, yes, every does mean each here, but okay if you disagree.

I do not disagree with the interpretation, however I could read "every combatant takes a turn" to mean that every combatant takes a set of actions that occur during a turn, but not necessarily that each such set of actions is what constitutes a turn. Specifically, "which includes various actions" allows for the possibility that a turn is a segment in the initiative cycle during which combatant(s) take the indicated actions, since there is not, to my knowledge, a specific definition of what a turn is. In this interpretation, every combatant takes a turn, which includes various actions" could mean that all combatants whose initiative count falls on a specific turn take their allowed actions.

As for your last point, I don't understand. What in this interpretation leaves out the possibility of delaying an action with the specific intent to overwhelm a single opponent?

I'm talking about the difference between an attack against one enemy as it goes by, or all of them.

Also, do you mean delay (as in postpone your entire turn until later in the round) or ready (as in use your standard action now to set up a triggered action for later in the round)?

I mean delay.

Delaying causes you to take your turn later, and does not allow you to start your turn "inside" someone elses turn.

I am not talking about starting a turn inside another; I am talking about starting one simultaneously (that is, on the same initiative count). I don't believe there is a specific rule prohibiting the Delay action from being used in this way.

Readying an action does allow for 'nesting' one action inside someone else's turn. So, for example, if the enemies are worried about a fighter stopping them via OA's, they could, for example, ALL ready actions to charge certain targets behind the fighter with a specific trigger. If this trigger was for the 'last' monster to do something (i.e. there are 5 monsters, monster 1 through 4 ready charges on the wizard and cleric who are behind the fighter, and the trigger is when monster 5 tries to move past the fighter) then, it would take place during monster 5's turn, and thus if the fighter attacked monster 5, he wouldn't get to OA monsters 1 through 4. However, that would use up the immediate actions of monsters 1 through 4 for the round.

Another version of this would be setting the trigger for one of the fighter's actions (i.e. attacking or moving) in which case the fighter can't make OAs at all because it's hs own turn.

The PCs could use similar tactics against a monster to avoid OAs, but it does mean giving up immediate actions in order to use your readied actions. And, in those cases, you aren't actually taking a turn within a turn, merely resolving an immediate interupt inside of someone elses turn.

These are good points. I am mainly trying to figure this out because I am building an Essentials-style defender monk for my brother to use in my games that works similarly to the Brawling Fighter (except instead of chasing down enemies, it moves to intercept them). I was using the advice from the original DMG of rolling monster group initiatives and, this issue came up immediately.

The only time multiple creatures share a turn are in situations like a swarm (where it's a single "creature" composed of many creatures) or in the case of a ranger or sentinel and their animal companion, etc.

Is that RAW, or RAI?

 

[Matt James]

Quick question. Why is this being debated? What parcel of verbiage is being required that this is an issue?