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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6114126" data-attributes="member: 42582">Personally, no - I have my own views, and a reasonable knowledge of the literature (including the literature around so-called "torture warrants"), and I think to go into it would be contrary to board rules.I was making a different point, namely, that the traditional outer planer structure doesn't determine the ideals of any alignment. It presupposes them. The ideals have to be sourced elsewhere.And likewise, it can't be "shifting of the planar balance" that explains why an action is good or evil; because it will only shift the planar balance if it is already, in some logically prior sense, good or evil.But if it was not good but neutral then the paladin espousing it would be in breach of the code. And if it was in fact good, then the paladin opposing it would be in breach of the code.To be clear, I have nothing against conflict between paladins. Lancelot and Gawain came to blows, after all. I am saying that in a traditional D&D alignment set up there is no room for it, because the paladin whose views are wrong will immediately suffer the consequences of code violation.And   [MENTION=93444]shidaku[/MENTION], I think I misunderstood you - I took you to be defending the traditional approach. If in fact you were trying to show that it is a failure at setting up and inviting players to explore moral conflicts in play, then we're in agreement!Why? If you don't want to give them morality lessons, what's the objection to them playing a paladin that differs from the GM's conception?If the issue is just that they're a bad player - eg they want to play an obviously cowardly PC while insisting that their PC is a paragon of courage - then I don't see that I need special paladin rules to handle that. At least for me, the issue will go deeper and as I said upthread my solution would be to boot that player.These two things aren't in general equivalent (though they may be at some tables).The gods in my gameworld have real power - for instance, they can return the dead to life (and that has happened to two PCs in my game).But the gods are not played solely by me as GM. Given that four of the five PCs in my game are divine characters (invoker, paladin, fighter-cleric, ranger-cleric) and one is a non-divine member of a divine cult, I (as GM) don't have sole authority over who the gods are and what they want. The players share that authority, given how integral the gods are to their PCs.</blockquote>

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