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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 6116628" data-attributes="member: 48965">Yes but there is very little (outside of combat mechanics) inherent in 4e that matches this particular archetype to the mechanics that are presented. Let's take a look at the passage you posted...Now if we ignore all the description that is purely about combat and instead focus on the characteristics of a 4e paladin we see that...Paladins are supposed to be "exemplars of [their] divine ethos"... yet can perform actions totally contrary to said ethos whenever they want...Paladins devotion is supposed to be their strength... yet they are just as strong without it...Paladins refuse to allow the illusions of temptation to dissuade [them] from [their] obligations... yet a 4e Paladin can indulge in all sorts of temptation without reprecussions.I disagree...Being able to use all armor and shields, is about combat and doesn't speak to the actual archetype's characteristics since any character with an expenditure of feats can match this. Prayers and melee attacks are cool but they're generic and not centered around the Paladins ethos and serve in no way to reinforce it... as an example a Paladin of the Raven Queen can just as easily use his helpful powers on an Orcus cultist, if he declares them an ally... why can someone who is supposed to be an exemplar of the Raven Queen's ethos, and whose power comes from his devotion do this? As to skills... let me know when this indomitable warrior of such prowess gets athletics... I guess if the only fictional positioning that matters is how he fights... you're right. Otherwise I find that the mechanics are pretty neutral to the fictional positioning and archetype of the 4e paladinYet D&D, and even 4e, is also gamist... which means at least part of the play experience is about surviving and overcoming challenges. What happens when that implicit trust to play the paladin correctly bumps against a player's desire to succeed in gamist play (and I have actually seen this happen in encounters play)? He may choose to staty true to the paladin but he may also choose to disregard the fictional positioning alltogether in order to survive and/or prosper. One of the things the Paladin restrictions protect against is the degredation of the archetype for convenience. If there is an implicit trust, why not be transparent and make it explicit? These character's archetypes are not paragons of the things you list. Wizards are defined by the ability to use magic... not by their intellect. In fact there are plenty of stories about the bumbling, or short-sighted wizard with plenty of power he uses unwisely (even the great and poweful Merlin, when it comes to certain women, falls into this category at times). A Bard is also not an exemplar of the human condition and social expertise... he is a magnificent preformer and just by looking at performers in the real world being the most socially adept and/or understanding the human condition is not a pre-requisite. The paladin is a different breed, the archetype and it's powers are defined by it's very specific behavior, it's ethos and it's devotion.</blockquote>

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