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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6122577" data-attributes="member: 42582">More-or-less, yes. Once you go for those "fictional" ideals, you've severed the connection between the paladin class and its archetype.(That's not to say that you have to subscribe to those values to play a paladin - I can be a modern Benthamite bureaucrat, for instance, and still enjoy playing a premodern romantic paladin - but once, in play, you are not aiming at those values you've severed the link.)Well, as I said to [MENTION=6668292]JamesonCourage[/MENTION] there are board rules in play here that I don't want to violate. But one point to make would be that it is highly contentius to say that values are constructed and given definition by us.A second point, and I think the more pertinent one, is that GM-arbitrated alignment doesn't involve construction and definition by us. It involves construction and definition by the GM.Burning Wheel does permit a type of "paladin faling" scenario - a PC with the Faithful trait can have that trait stripped, and/or replaced by the Lost Faith trait. But this can't happen unilaterally. BW handles this process via what is called the "trait vote" - members of the group put forward nominations for changes in a PC's traits (and the player can put forward his/her own nominations for his/her PC), arguments are put, and then a vote taken (the rules leave it to each table to determine whether or not the player gets to vote for his/her own PC).This is getting closer to the idea of we define and construct - although in this case it is not the value that is being defined and constructed, but rather the group's interpretation of a PC's psychological state - has s/he lost his/her faith?If the falling of paladins was handled in something like this way in D&D, I would find it less objectionable - though there are enough other differences between D&D and BW that I would still not be a big fan.</blockquote>

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