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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6125801" data-attributes="member: 42582">This raises particular issues in relation to the paladin.At least arguably, the modern notion of morality as a system of rules is attributable to the tradition of which Kant is the exemplar. There is a line of attack on this tradition, though (and associated ideas like the priority of the right to the good) found in anti-modernists like GEM Anscombe ("Modern Moral Philosophy"), Alasdair MacIntyre ("After Virtue"), Michael Sandel (in his critique of Rawls), John Carroll ("humanism"), etc. This general line of criticism (influenced in part by Aristotle) emphasises the importance of values, and of a virtuous character that exemplifies those values, over compliance to universally binding rules.There is at least a good argument that the paladin, in important ways, is better framed in that earlier tradition - s/he is an exemplar of certain values, not an ideal follower of certain rules.My concern with this is that those rules end up being mere geases or taboos. Which makes perfect sense for druids, say (and hence I have nothing against the rule that druids can't wear metal armour - a geas like that makes perfect sense for a druid).But (for me, at least) a paladin's code isn't meant to be a mere geas, some magical limit which if violated will cost the paladin his/her power. The paladin isn't a faerie, or a Celtic warrior empowered by some magician.The paladin's code is meant to express certain values - valour, honour, justice, truth, etc. Those are the key to paladinhood. That's what's going on with Sturm Brightblade in Dragonlance, for instance - the Measure is important not as a geas, but as a set of rules that he has sworn to obey - and when he departs from those rules because he thinks that justice or charity demands it the reason he is in a pickle is not because there is a conflict between the Measure and the demands of justice/charity/etc. The pickle arises because there is a conflict between the demands of two equally salient values - honour (he swore to uphold the Measure) and justice/charity/etc.This is also why I find the idea, canvassed by multiple posters upthread, of the paladin choosing to break the code in pursuit of a greater good, hard to process. Because it is presented as if the paladin is choosing to breach his/her geas to pursue a greater good. And of course that would make sense, for a character under a geas (eg a druid has to disguise as a knight to make some plan work, and temporarily loses power as a result).But a paladin who chooses to break the code isn't breaking a geas - s/he is breaking an oath in pursuit of some other value, and so the real conflict is between two values equally important to a paladin - honour and truthfulness (which require upholding one's oath) vs whatever the "greater good" is (typically, in D&D, it will be justice or charity). And so however clear the code, and therefore however clear the breach, why should it be the GM who decides whether honour or justice is the more important virtue for a paladin? Why can't that be the player's decision, to be explored and settled via play?Agreed.</blockquote>

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