So when should a publisher ditch d20 and develop their own system?

[Gundark]

So I'm in this debate over at the privateer press forums. For some reason there are these d20 haters that hang out there and regularly post about how much they hate d20. Anyhow there is this call put out on the forums by the haters for PP to ditch d20 and develop their own system.

Now to me this would be a very bad move on PP's part. And we've been going back and forth as to why this is or isn't a bad idea.

the main point of the hater is how Pinnacle press ditched d20 and developed savage worlds and how this was a good move.

Anyhow, the question is...Is it a good move for a publisher to ditch d20 and develop their own system? And if so, when?

 

[GlassJaw]

As far as Privateer goes, I think it would be a very, very bad idea.

First off, RPG's aren't their money-maker anymore - it's Warmachine. Their RPG stuff is very good but it's the popularity of WM that's allowed them to keep publishing (albeit slowly) their Iron Kingdoms RPG material. Developing their own, non-d20 system would reduce their RPG market even further. I'm sure many people that buy their RPG products don't play Warmachine at all. If they developed their own system, I doubt they would get as much crossover sales.

On top of that, Privateer should know what their strengths are, and rules design it ain't. They seemed to have caught lightning in a bottle with WM but by and large, their RPG mechanics largely suck.

 

[BlackMoria]

When their arrogance level or ego grows to the point that they firmly believe that they can 'do it better' than anyone else. Then, let them try.

Systems and rules have come and gone. Hell, my bookcase of games is testament to that.

The trouble is, some of those rules/systems are good in my opinion and yet, they never reach a critical mass to be the 'next best thing' and remain a small niche.

Staying with D20 at least affords a degree of 'recognition' in the competitive market, in that anyone with familiarity with D20 may potentially be interested in your product.

Coming up with the 'next best thing' is really hard to do and marketing it so that it can reach 'critical mass' is even harder to do. All one has to do is look at the long list of RPG rule systems over the years and ask yourself - why haven't they eclipsed D&D? Certainly, some of them have good clean rules which are better than D&D but ask around and find out what the majority of people are playing in your area and it probably is not that innovative game system, it is either D&D (regardless of edition) or White Wolf something or another (at least in the several areas that I know and talk with gamers).

Anyone who thinks they can come up with a game system that will topple the king needs to ask themselves why they think they can succeed when a great many before them have not....

 

[Harlekin]

Also Pinnacle Press is a bad example, because they had used a non-d20 system before and only jumped on the d20 bandwagon to make some extra money, All their d20 offerings were rather lackluster. So if your designers don't like d20 you're better off with a different system.

 

[Glyfair]

Anyhow, the question is...Is it a good move for a publisher to ditch d20 and develop their own system? And if so, when?

I just read an entry on Ryan Dancey's blog that is very close to this. The only difference is that it's focused on starting a new RPG rather than going in another direction.

I highly recommend the article. It includes a whole lot of things to consider, and tips he gives, about starting an RPG company with the goal to eventually make a living at it.

Two examples of tips I like:

If your game world is a typical Tolkien-inspired Middle-Earth clone, make sure that it really is cool. The bar is EXTREMELY HIGH. Gamers don’t buy worlds because they’re just like 100 other worlds they already own, but with guns, or where the elves are furries, or whatever minor change you think makes you distinct. Don’t confuse the forest for the trees. Your customers will not.

Tolkien’s proper names are lyrical and endlessly fascinating because he was a professional linquist, and actually created whole languages for his characters to speak, and derive their nouns from. Likely, the nouns in your setting are just syllables that you strung together because they sounded cool. Trust me, they’re not that cool. The city of “Waterdeep” is vastly more compelling a name to most players than the city of “Tess’ldrin^tch”, unless you’re M.A.R. Barker, and you’re ready to back up that noun with hundreds more that are internally consistent. And even then, Barker is a taste that’s hard to acquire.

and yes, and on topic:

Before you assume that you can design a game as good as those people, especially without a thorough grounding in statistics, probability theory, gamer demographics, a good grounding in how to template rules text, and a hundred other niche fields of study uniquely applicable to RPG design, take a while to consider if it would make more sense to use an off-the-shelf system like D20, which comes with very few strings attached.

There are reasons not to use D20 (or another Open Game, like FUDGE), but they are very specific. Maybe you want to try and make a game where the player’s knowledge of how the rules work is suppressed. Maybe you want a game where the “resolution” of the action is longer/larger than individuals and discrete actions. Perhaps you want a game where the players create the powers and abilities of their characters directly. D20 is not a good fit for games that don’t involve conflict. Maybe you want to go after the portion of the player community who has said “enough with D20 already!” Perhaps you have a licensor or CEO who forbids the use of D20.

Here are some reasons not to avoid D20: You think it is too complex (the complexity of D20 is wholly within the control of the designer). You think players are burned out on D20 and most don’t like it anymore and are looking for brand new games (look at any reputable sales chart to see that statement refuted). You feel that Hit Points, Armor Class, Vancian spellcasting, classes, levels, etc. restrict or limit, or in some other way restrict you from expressing your “vision” (all those things are designer options, not features of the system, and can be discarded, modified, or ignored once you understand how to use the whole D20 toolbox).

 

[Gundark]

On top of that, Privateer should know what their strengths are, and rules design it ain't. They seemed to have caught lightning in a bottle with WM but by and large, their RPG mechanics largely suck.

Well there is that...their fluff is top notch. the rules....I didn't want to say anything bad about that over there.

 

[pogre]

Jus to echo others - the success of a system no matter how good it is - is how many folks are playing it? I think a lot of people play D&D because that's the most widespread, accepted game. In view of that, leaving d20 seems like a mistake.

 

[Nifft]

When they need a probability quantization not segregated into 5% buckets.
When they need a non-linear probability distribution function for conflict resolution.

When they think it'll sell better.

Cheers, -- N

 

[CaptainChaos]

Jus to echo others - the success of a system no matter how good it is - is how many folks are playing it? I think a lot of people play D&D because that's the most widespread, accepted game. In view of that, leaving d20 seems like a mistake.

But we hear from publisher all the time about the d20 market is a shadow of its former self.

 

[eyebeams]

Meh; Privateer has a popular brand and wargame. An RPG using mechanics spun off from the wargame and compatible in some respects would be a better for for them than d20.