So when should a publisher ditch d20 and develop their own system?

[Psion]

If it's the essential part, then Monopoly is an RPG.

If RP is the essential part, then theater is an RPG.

See where I'm going with this?

 

[buzz]

You need "R," "P," and "G" in order to be an RPG. Different games and play-styles may prioritize one over the other, but ditch any one and you've got something less than a full RPG.

Games that fail are the ones which do not realize this.

 

[woodelf]

FWIW, I am part of the problem. I bought the first printing, and then I bought the 4th printing; the lure of corrected errata was too strong, even though the paper quality went down. My friend ended up buying multiple copies as well (including PDF). We're going to be starting a campaign in a month or so.

I bought the game because I'm a Firefly fan. I'm playing in the campaign because I'm a fan, and because the is the first time anyone in our group has been able to convince the others to try something that was not D&D, much less not d20. I am not nuts about the mechanics (and neither is the rest of the group, so far), but I am not going to pass up an opportunity to play something different for once.

I bought the game because i'm a Firefly fan. I'm gonna be playing our high-drama space opera game with Dust Devils, however, precisely because i'm a Firefly fan--and i realized a few years ago that what i love about Firefly (and even moreso with Farscape and Babylon 5 and BSG and Blake's 7) is something that the Firefly rules utterly fail to capture. And, it's those interpersonal and, even more importantly, intrapersonal, conflicts that are why those shows appeal to my friends, too, so the sell wasn't too hard.

Unless, of course, this campaign gets derailed in favor of Buffy, using the official RPG. 'Cause while my friends all agree that's what they love about the TV shows, some of them prefer light-hearted zero-emotional-investment play, when it comes to RPGs.

 

[woodelf]

If RP is the essential part, then theater is an RPG.

See where I'm going with this?

Yep. Thing is, i can think of corner cases that eliminate (or mostly-eliminate) the game elements, and are still arguably RPGs--Baron Munchausen being one of best-known examples. I'm not sure it's an RPG, but i'm not sure it's not. I can't think of anything that eliminates the roleplaying elements, and which i've ever heard anyone argue is an RPG (setting aside people claiming that D&D is/isn't an RPG due to being "a tactical wargame with RPG trappings", or words to that effect). This makes me think that the RP part is more essential than the G part, because when you completely strip the latter out, some people still see it as the same, but, as near as i can tell, not when you completely strip the RP part out.

Are small-scale systemless LARPs, with or without explicit victory conditions, RPGs? I'm not sure we can unequivocally say 'no', while i don't think it's a controversy saying that Monopoly isn't an RPG. For that matter, is Comedy Sports really not an RPG? In the broad sense, that includes such things as LARPs, as opposed to the narrow sense, where only tabletop pen&paper RPGs are being considered.

[And, of course, i'm not talking about whether or not one can bring RPing to Monopoly--of course you can--just whether it's actually part of the game, as written.]

 

[Piratecat]

For an excellent explanation of toys vs. puzzles vs. stories vs. games, see Greg Costikyan's article I have no words & I must design.

 

[buzz]

I'm gonna be playing our high-drama space opera game with Dust Devils, however, precisely because i'm a Firefly fan--and i realized a few years ago that what i love about Firefly (and even moreso with Farscape and Babylon 5 and BSG and Blake's 7) is something that the Firefly rules utterly fail to capture.

This is precisely why I recoiled in horror when, iirc, someone upthread suggested adding merchant rules to Serenity. Because, you know, Firefly always prominently featured scenes of Mal doing the books and writing out bills of lading.

Similarly (and with intentional sarcasm), I can't wait to see the BSG RPG's rules for explosive decompression, starship fuel consumption, and how much Starbuck can carry before being encumbered.

 

[woodelf]

Similarly (and with intentional sarcasm), I can't wait to see the BSG RPG's rules for explosive decompression, starship fuel consumption, and how much Starbuck can carry before being encumbered.

Starbuck? I don't think Starbuck gets encumbered. She can gut, rewire, and fly a cylon fighter; drink any 3 people under the table, and probably still shoot straight; and land a viper with a missing engine or no fuel; you really think mundane things like mass and inertia slow her down?

It's kinda like my response when people complained that the original B5 RPG didn't have ship-to-ship combat rules in the core book: "Yeah, and? How many times in the series did a starship fight get portrayed, or matter, on an individual-fighter level? In 110 eps, 3-4 acts and multiple scenes each, I don't think there were a dozen such scenes. Heck, both of the most amazing such fights took place entirely off screen." Winging it with a couple skill tests still seems like about the right detail level for B5 starfighter battles.