Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Social Challenges & Political Conflicts
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="valis" data-source="post: 6728560" data-attributes="member: 91988"><p>First of all, thanks for the wonderful comments. I worked a long time on this. It's based off the old Arabian Nights game, and is designed to preserve agency of the player characters and make social interactions less arbitrary. </p><p></p><p>It was designed originally for older styles of games (Basic/Expert) using the bell curve reaction table, which means their are some wonky interactions when converted to a straight 1d20 system. I've noted the same issues many people in the thread have noted. </p><p></p><p>However, having a long running 5th edition game, I do have some words of advice. The range of bonuses to stats is not +2 to +11 (Proficiency + Stat modifier). It's +2 to +17. A first level thief with expertise and a 20 charisma has a minimum value of 10 on a Charisma (Persuasion) check. They might not normally do that, but if they know you're handling these interactions mechanically, they would be more encouraged to.</p><p></p><p>What's more likely is that your bard will have a Charisma of 20 at the same time they are picking up Expertise, meaning that an mean roll of theirs will be 21, (+6 proficiency, plus 5 from stat), not considering their ability to roll at advantage or handing out inspiration dice to other people making ability checks. </p><p></p><p>What I'm saying is that difficult checks in the original system, at 11, (or 12 to get a friendly reaction) had a ~3-~8% chance of succeeding, pushed up to ~25% for characters with a very high Charisma (16+). 16 on Charisma on 3d6 down the line is very unlikely. A DC of 25 for a mid level party has a realistic possibility of having a 40%+ chance of success with very little work. Letting the Warlock roll at advantage and being granted a bardic inspiration die by the bard isn't that unlikely. Neither is a bard with expertise in persuasion when you're using this system (and they know how powerful it is).</p><p></p><p>Now, I encourage everyone to use it and change it for their own games. But know that it is trivially easy for your players to have only a slight chance of failure at middle or higher levels at tasks that should be challenging or nearly impossible. You may find if you use it as an objective resolution system that the lower difficulties cause players to become incredibly persuasive speakers, causing guards to leave their posts and flock to their cause with little difficulty. That's not a bad thing, but it is something you should be aware of. </p><p></p><p>Personally I'm a fan of objective difficulties, not level based ones (like in Pathfinder). A DC 20 cliff to climb is DC 20 for first and 20th level characters, rather than having it be a DC 15 cliff for low level characters and a DC 25 cliff for high level characters. </p><p></p><p>This also discounts the possibility of magic items or other effects that can influence the roll (which you can bet the players will leverage). It's important to keep in mind what bounded accuracy means, and how expertises and skill rolls can push the range of values. My 11th level group can routinely get +15 or more to persuasion skill checks. I asked for an investigation roll and the response was "32" today. The player isn't spec'd for investigation.</p><p></p><p>For reference: </p><p>+2 to +6: Proficiency</p><p>+4 to +12: Expertise</p><p>-2 to +5: Stat</p><p>~+1 to +4: Advantage</p><p>+1 to +6/8/10: Bardic Inspiration</p><p>Additional bonuses and effects due to magic items.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="valis, post: 6728560, member: 91988"] First of all, thanks for the wonderful comments. I worked a long time on this. It's based off the old Arabian Nights game, and is designed to preserve agency of the player characters and make social interactions less arbitrary. It was designed originally for older styles of games (Basic/Expert) using the bell curve reaction table, which means their are some wonky interactions when converted to a straight 1d20 system. I've noted the same issues many people in the thread have noted. However, having a long running 5th edition game, I do have some words of advice. The range of bonuses to stats is not +2 to +11 (Proficiency + Stat modifier). It's +2 to +17. A first level thief with expertise and a 20 charisma has a minimum value of 10 on a Charisma (Persuasion) check. They might not normally do that, but if they know you're handling these interactions mechanically, they would be more encouraged to. What's more likely is that your bard will have a Charisma of 20 at the same time they are picking up Expertise, meaning that an mean roll of theirs will be 21, (+6 proficiency, plus 5 from stat), not considering their ability to roll at advantage or handing out inspiration dice to other people making ability checks. What I'm saying is that difficult checks in the original system, at 11, (or 12 to get a friendly reaction) had a ~3-~8% chance of succeeding, pushed up to ~25% for characters with a very high Charisma (16+). 16 on Charisma on 3d6 down the line is very unlikely. A DC of 25 for a mid level party has a realistic possibility of having a 40%+ chance of success with very little work. Letting the Warlock roll at advantage and being granted a bardic inspiration die by the bard isn't that unlikely. Neither is a bard with expertise in persuasion when you're using this system (and they know how powerful it is). Now, I encourage everyone to use it and change it for their own games. But know that it is trivially easy for your players to have only a slight chance of failure at middle or higher levels at tasks that should be challenging or nearly impossible. You may find if you use it as an objective resolution system that the lower difficulties cause players to become incredibly persuasive speakers, causing guards to leave their posts and flock to their cause with little difficulty. That's not a bad thing, but it is something you should be aware of. Personally I'm a fan of objective difficulties, not level based ones (like in Pathfinder). A DC 20 cliff to climb is DC 20 for first and 20th level characters, rather than having it be a DC 15 cliff for low level characters and a DC 25 cliff for high level characters. This also discounts the possibility of magic items or other effects that can influence the roll (which you can bet the players will leverage). It's important to keep in mind what bounded accuracy means, and how expertises and skill rolls can push the range of values. My 11th level group can routinely get +15 or more to persuasion skill checks. I asked for an investigation roll and the response was "32" today. The player isn't spec'd for investigation. For reference: +2 to +6: Proficiency +4 to +12: Expertise -2 to +5: Stat ~+1 to +4: Advantage +1 to +6/8/10: Bardic Inspiration Additional bonuses and effects due to magic items. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Social Challenges & Political Conflicts
Top