Social "hit points" and mental attributes used for "social combat?"

I think the biggest problem with systems like this is that - like in combat - you need terrain of some kind to allow maneuvers and suchlike, otherwise it's basically just an exercise in dice-rolling, like skill challenges.

That said, I have no idea what "terrain" you could have in a conversation.
 

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Well, if you factored in things like personality type/quality, you could follow it up with rules about conversation advantage/bluffs.

So, suppose you have a hero complex (proud, compassionate & spontaneous personality traits). If the enemy side/party/individual appeals to one or all of those traits in his assertion/argument/bluff, he could get conversation advantage- which would equate to bonuses on the result.

Conversely, appealing to the wrong trait might make your argument weaker. Such as, when you try to convince a conceited person to give money to others, because it's the right thing to do. His personality types (greedy, selfish, proud) make it less likely for him to be compelled by the suffering of others.
 

I'm actually personally a big fan of the Burning Wheel Duel of Wits system. I find that it actually encourages rather than hinders roleplaying. You plan your moves, then as they resolved roleplay out what your character is saying to actually fulfill his motivations. Plus, by having explicit mechanical "modes" of speaking it helps the other players pick up on some of the nuances you were going for.

I know a lot of people are here saying you don't need a system for this, and that you can just roleplay it out since we can all talk, but I'm not a fan of this approach. It can easily turn into the situation where the silver-tongued player playing the dumb and uncouth barbarian with no social skills whatsoever is the driving force behind every discussion. And I for one don't like that at all.
 

I don't know if this will be of any value to your idea or your inquiry, but I submit my comments as just a series of observations.

There are multiple types of role-play. There is character type (class) role play, character persona role play, character position (in the group, what function does the character perform within the group) role play, character projection role play (character becomes a projection of the player himself), and character vocation (as opposed to class, what problem or problems does/do the character commonly solve or like to solve or what types of situations does he seek out to engage), etc. To name but a few I think.

I mention that merely to give you some avenues of pursuit. Whereas it is true that a player might cover all of these bases and more while engaged in role playing his or her character, they may also only apply themselves fundamentally in one, or perhaps a few of these categories of role play. I can play them all if necessary, but my least favorite is usually character persona role play (actual play acting) and my real favorite, generally speaking, is character vocational role play. Some people may appreciate one aspect more than another. I say that merely to give you something to consider in this regard. Whereas not all types of role play may be considered equal by any particular individual, it may be possible that more role playing is going on than you immediately suspect, just not all of it is, let us say, persona role playing. (The again some people may see persona role playing as speaking in character, whereas someone else may see it as "acting in character." As with actual human personality types, different people value different aspects of a given situation, setting, or challenge in different ways and will act accordingly in respect to their own nature, but not necessarily as someone of a different nature might expect them to react.)

I also favor active role play to mechanical systems.

My players often engage in debates, similar to Medieval debates, either against each other or against NPCs or monsters played by me. It's not really "social combat per se" but it is social competition affected by charisma (both personal on the part of the player, and character based, though intelligence, wisdom, and wit - which in this case might be considered mental dexterity, and I am a big fan of developing, sharpening, practicing, and employing wit - are also employed).

Anywho I have seen such debates and other such things, over time, assist players become better debaters and speakers in real life. I'm not against mechanical systems per se though, because a lot of mechanical techniques can be applied to real world situations, and therefore improve player's real world capabilities. These mechanical techniques, like other role playing techniques (analytical reasoning, deduction, observation, inquiry, etc) just don't happen to rely upon dice rolls in those role play situations in any given setting. But in cases like that mechanical techniques do lead to improvements in abilities, in both the player and the character.

(Or in other words, as an analogy to what I referred to above, there are different mechanical and technical methods, just as there are different types of role play. For instance learning good debating techniques is a mechanical exercise, but it relies upon the practice and repetition and mastering of real skills, not a randomized method of skill resolution. In a game you can of course rely entirely upon randomized methods of skill and problem resolution for role play, but there is no law saying you must reply upon such methods. Both learning new real skills, and simulating skill employment through die roll are potential methods of problem resolution in game through mechanical and technical methods, they just require different approaches and yield different results. As a little side I'm also not a particular fan of attributes like Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma being basically static, but I think such things can and should be improved by practice, exposure, and study, as well as "in the field experience." People improve such capabilities all of the time by these methods and more, just as athletes become stronger and faster and gain more endurance via athletic trading, and there is no reason I can think of why characters would not and would remain basically static in capability over long periods of time.)

Anyways it's just something to consider in developing your ideas.
In any case good luck to ya.


I'm actually personally a big fan of the Burning Wheel Duel of Wits system. I find that it actually encourages rather than hinders roleplaying. You plan your moves, then as they resolved roleplay out what your character is saying to actually fulfill his motivations. Plus, by having explicit mechanical "modes" of speaking it helps the other players pick up on some of the nuances you were going for.

That sounds interesting and of some potential to me because if I'm reading you right you are practicing the mechanical skills of tactical or maybe even strategic planning in relation to how you intend to execute your social skills and use of wit.

That would be a potentially useful ability to have in the real world as well, as long as the techniques used could be applied outside the game as well.
 
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Not meaning to be cruel, because a lack of conversational ability doesn't make someone a bad person, but if they can't or won't talk to any great length due to their personality, that is a bad thing that will make the game less fun for others. Game mechanics removing the need for them to do so at all run the risk of reducing the fun for everyone involved, if the participants derive fun from play-acting, as most of us (I'd guess) do, to one extent or another.

So, if a person stutters, DnD is not for them? I can't say that I agree.

As for the use value of this, I can definitely say that there are times when I really don't want to be arbitrary about how an important social situation works out. For complex social engagements, it can be a real boon to have a way to track the successes and failures of the party. In addition, I second the notion that such a system gives players guide to strategizing their noncombat actions.

In short, a social mechanic is right up there with naval combat and mass warfare as things that have a market demand only partially filled by gaming materials.
 
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Usually speech impediments aren't an issue with me...
but when you have someone who speaks in such a broken and unclear fashion that I can't even understand their words or ideas, it can be irritating.
This was compounded for me because this guy thought he was a pro at D&D.. and kept making uneducated leaps about what the rules are/should be. And then he'd try to hide his ignorance by misleading other players.
Next time I GM at a convention, I'm going to be a bit more selective.
Anywho, social skills are a boon to the GM and the rest of the group in situations like above.
 

I don't really game with people with poor social skills, so that's never been an issue. I do tend to run investigation heavy games, so social skills are often more important than combat skills. My hunter game last night for instance, had about 3 1/2 hours of talking to people and looking for clues, capped by about 1/2 hour of combat at the climax.

Part of the game in nWoD is getting your social skills to match up what you're good at. You have Presence and Manipulate when trying to get someone to do something, and combine that with Socialize, Subterfuge, Empathy, Intimidate, etc. If you want to find out where someone was, you could buddy up with them and implore them that you really need some help, resulting in the GM calling for Presence + Socialize. Or suggest that there's an investigation going on and you'd have for them to get implicated, resulting in Manipulation + Intimidate. Or whatever.

As for the use on the table, I use it for the same reason I use combat rules. So that I'm not just declaring everything by fiat. I no more want to decide that yes NPC gives up the information or does not any more than I want to just decide the outcome of a combat. There is still considerable roleplaying and player skill - even if you have awesome social skills, the problem is still asking the right questions.

I don't allow them to replace roleplay, because (at least with systems using multiple types of social rolls) the players don't just get to say "I'm using Presence + Socialize on him". Tell me what you're saying to him, in character*, and I'll tell you what roll to use.

* I understand that some people game without ever talking in character. This is completely alien to me, so I don't take it into account. I've literally never played an RPG with someone that didn't talk in character.
 

The Terrains of Mind, Soul, Spirit, and Society

That said, I have no idea what "terrain" you could have in a conversation.

It would definitely take some experimentation, that's for sure. Especially when you are talking about gaming and even simulation situations. But, generally peaking, I very much like the idea of mental, psychological, argumentative, and even "social terrains and geographies." And of all of the accompanying factors involved.

You could have negotiation terrains, debating terrains, charismatic terrains and domains, inventive terrains, wit (argumentative wit competitions) terrains, interrogational terrains, investigative terrains, conversational terrains, etc. But one thing I think would be very much possible while engaging in mental and psychological and social contests, competitions, and combats, would be "tactical terrain shifts." That is to say that since such contests take place on social, metal, psychological, and perhaps even spiritual levels, the combatants or disputants would be able to use the established "terrains" in very unique ways. For one thing certain aspects of a terrain would be "fixed" or basically agreed to, but on the other hand much of the associated terrain would be transmutable, open to modification (depending upon the line of pursuit followed by one or more disputants), changeable by circumstance and would even be able to be created ad hoc, as arguments and contests and combats proceed, stall, reform, etc.

Because so much of the terrain would be alterable because of the fact that the "field of contest" is mental, psychological, and spiritual (rather than entirely physical, as with physical combat situations), then much of the terrain(s) would be very fluid and easily open to almost instantaneous to manipulation, destruction, creation, and recreation.

As a matter of fact I wouldn't mind seeing such a set of ideals or systems and sub-systems being created and developed not only to handle things like social combats, but also to handle things like magic (arcane), supernatural magic, and so-called psychic powers. It would I think make the interaction between physical forces and powers and what are essentially magical and mythical and psychological and spiritual forces and powers much more interesting. Not to say varied, flexible, and in some ways powerful.
 
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Other games that have social combat:

Dogs in the Vineyard - wouldn't translate into D&D at all, but the 'social combat' and the possibility of stakes being raised in a conflict is rather neat.

Heroquest- uses basically the same mechanic for resolving any kind of conflict, and any kind of conflict can be a simple one (basically just make one roll) or a complex one (requiring lots of rolls). One of the things that I like about it is that your 'skills' can include stuff like relationships with other people - and you can bring in those relationships into any kind of conflict too.

Uh, my Starguild OGL game - which is based on the True20 system, and which has damage saves for combat, but also extends the damage save idea for social conflict (captivate, dissemble, haggle, intimidate, peacemaking, persuade, seduction and others) and dramatic scenes (chases, infiltration, interrogation, manhunt, netrunning etc).

None of these fit directly with the metaphore you ask about, but are interesting enough to warrant a mention.

Cheers
 

I used to be a big proponent of social combat systems, but after trying a few out I have changed my mind.

The problem I found was that when you interrupt dialogue with dice rolling and mechanics you interrupt the flow the of the scene.

I have found there is an inertia to roleplaying. Sometimes everyone is setting around, no one is talking, and you can't really get a good thing going. And sometimes everyone is very in character, talking back and forth, and the energy level is really high. Ultimately I found encouraging that energy level by not interrupting it was better than trying to institute mechanics.
 

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