Solo Monster Encounter Problems

[keterys]

I came up with one house-rule for solo mobs: They can make a save against one effect at the START of their own turn at the normal +5, or make a save against all effects at the normal +0. This makes status effects a lot less fun on the boss. The players will then use them on the sidekicks instead, allowing the boss to shine. It might not be necessary if you run the solo-encounter as hard as described above.

That apply to effects a save can't normally end? Such as a bard's popcorn healing, stunned or dazed until end of attacker's next turn, or... marked.

 

[Benimoto]

A lot of good advice in this thread. I want Nth the advice that solos may not always be great actually solo. Think of them more as "super-elites". I'd also like to second Iron Sky's advice that sometimes it's just fun for a party to lock down and unload on a tough monster, even though as a DM it may be obvious that the party is in no real danger.

My main insight is that solos function great in an adventure as a sink for troublesome daily powers. A solo may function well as not necessarily the BBEG of the current adventure, but rather as the BBEG's unstoppable juggernaut pet. If your BBEG is an elite-type humanoid, putting a fight with a solo monster directly before the confrontation with the BBEG serves both to ratchet up the tension in the adventure, and possibly to burn some of the PCs' "lockdown" powers.

That said, allowing a solo saves at the beginning as well as at the end of his turn sounds like a great idea I'll have to try in the future.

 

[renau1g]

Yeah the solo saves like a warden works well, but then totally nerfs the status effects of the controller and makes them feel even more impotent when facing the dragon

 

[keterys]

Yeah the solo saves like a warden works well, but then totally nerfs the status effects of the controller and makes them feel even more impotent when facing the dragon

Does it? Because control effects are already at least twice as effective as normal when used on the dragon.

A stun 1 round effect on a solo is a good 5 times as effective as it is on a normal monster.

So yeah, they're not impotent, they're just a bit more sane.

 

[renau1g]

True, true. It does come down to the reality that solos really are just the Elite elites. I've always found an encounter with them is usually very boring above points are very obvious.

 

[Blackbrrd]

That apply to effects a save can't normally end? Such as a bard's popcorn healing, stunned or dazed until end of attacker's next turn, or... marked.

I would say it would, but then maybe skip the +5 bonus a solo usually gets to saves?

Regarding my solo-setup - they did look a bit deadly. Maybe one should reduce the HP of the Solo by 20-40% as well? It would get bloodied faster that way. (A lot of solo's go real nasty at bloody ).

The extra 'mobs' the solo gets can also be terrain/traps that are beneficial to the Solo. Nothing like a nice pit trap for the defender.

I would probably go with this as my typical setup for a main boss encounter:

1xSolo: party level +2, 70% of normal hp, gets to save at start of round (in addition to end of round), but at +0 instead of +5.
1xElite: party level +2
2xNormal: party level

The normal mobs or the Elite should be soldiers. The Solo shouldn't be a brute, they suck.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Try a behir. :shudder:

Seriously, though, some party synergies, builds, tactics or play styles can make solos less interesting encounters. The party may be good at concentrating damage so avalanche-like that even a solo's hps don't hold up long enough to make a go of it. Or, they may have a stun-locking 'orbizard' or some other cheap trick that locks down or screws over one critter. If that's the case, still use solos - occassionally - but don't bother trying to make them challenging, make them the 'guardmonster' or 'mob' you have to get past to get to the real encounter, just a big ugly speedbump now and then, that expends a few resources and lets the players feel badass. For the challenging encounters, use larger groups of enemies with an overleveled Elite as the 'big bad' (and make the other enemies in the encouner good at defending him). If the party is just so good at concentrating damage that there's no point to it, have the 'big bad' be more of a leader in the intellectual sense, like a bond villain. Getting through all his allies and fiinding him, not acing him, is the challenge.

 

[Elric]

Does it? Because control effects are already at least twice as effective as normal when used on the dragon.

A stun 1 round effect on a solo is a good 5 times as effective as it is on a normal monster.

So yeah, they're not impotent, they're just a bit more sane.

This isn't quite true. A stun effect removes one round of offense, but a solo's offense is not (and should not be, by design) equivalent to that of five normal creatures.

Solo monsters don't suffer gradual attrition during the combat, so they shouldn't have comparable per round offenses to 5 normal monsters if they also have 5 times the durability of a normal monster. See http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan...s/254080-solos-status-effects-house-rule.html for much more on this (key quote and links below).

I should note that a solo's offense shouldn't be 5x that of a normal monster's offense by default. See the posts later in this thread, here or here. Since status conditions primarily affect monster offense, treating a solo as 5 monster equivalents seems too high here. However, note that in MM2 WotC has shifted solo design towards more offense and less defense than before; MM2 solos seem to be about 4 normal monster equivalents both offensively and defensively.

 

[keterys]

This isn't quite true. A stun effect removes one round of offense, but a solo's offense is not (and should not be, by design) equivalent to that of five normal creatures.

Depends - it also turns off immediates (one of the ways solos catch up), gives the group a round to move into position, flank, set up powers, etc.
And wasting a round of recharge can be pretty serious too, depending on the power.

Stunning a solo for a round is more than _just_ turning off its offense.

Solo monsters don't suffer gradual attrition during the combat

Some do, some are the reverse... get tougher at bloodied.

A bunch of solos seem designed to do crappy damage for waaaay too many rounds, though, and they tend to not care as much.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Yeah, to kill all 5 monsters in a normal encounter, you have to dish about the same damage as to kill 1 solo. But, in the normal encounter, the monster's offense starts out at 5 standard actions per rounds, and, as you kill them, it drops off. In the solo fight, the solo has his 1 standard action the whole fight, so his offense doesn't drop off as the fight continues - in fact, he gets two action points, and generally something nasty when he's bloodied, as well, so he can 'peek' offensivlely, say, in the middle of the fight, depending on the solo and how you run it.