Solo Monsters and the Risk of Boredom

[functionciccio]

by Mike Mearls:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1058300

I like the ideas in this post, but the underlying implication scares me...

 

[Tony Vargas]

I'll bite: what's the underlying implication?


The only thing I notices is the 4e movement-is-fun obsession. What's so fun about counting squares? Sure, I find tactial positioning fun, but if I'm still finding the need to move around a lot later in the combat, then I didn't do it right. And, besides, if we're not supposed to gather around the big bad to beat it down, why do we have 'marks,' OAs, Pin the Foe & Villain's Nightmare? Of course, even in 3e, there'd be every reason to not just stand around beating down the big bad - if it's big and bad enough to bring down one character before the party can bring it down, wolf pack tactics (and I don't mean the Warlord at-will) would be in order.

 

[Mort_Q]

I like the ideas in this post, but the underlying implication scares me...

What are the underlying implications as you see them?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The underlying implication is that Mike designed and tested the game system for two+ years without realizing that solo encounters were potentially boring, something that ENworld spotted not long after the illegal .pdfs hit them web.

Which, perhaps, doesn't make Mike look good. I'd in fact go as far as to say that coming to the system, it's patently obvious to any experienced DM that given the HP values involved, solo encounters could easily become boring.

 

[keterys]

Amusingly, if they'd only paid more attention to WoW they'd have probably included some good pointers for Solo encounters Especially the evolution of boss encounters in WoW is good for showcasing how to design interesting solo encounters, from the beginning boring fights to the later ones that involve a lot from everyone.

 

[Regicide]

Well theres a lot implications, but the first thing is further confirmation that Mearls shouldn't be in the job he's in. He's horrible.

Implications...
- He has probably read some Drizzt books.
- Most of his suggestions would make the fight easier for the PCs, but he doesn't mention anything about adjusting encounter difficulty.
- None of his suggestions would actually make the fight any more interesting as they're pretty much just 1 round things that won't actually change the overall flow of the fight, but apparently he couldn't even see that simple implication.
- Apparently we're supposed to take from his post that combat in DnD is boring and we need "set pieces" with special terrain features to fix it. Of course theres no "how to make interesting encounter terrain" anywhere in the DMG.
- Monsters are supposed to be really stupid and make their lairs as enemy friendly as possible so they can be killed more easily.

How about this as advice instead: Lower the level of the solo so it has less HPs relative to the party, and make the encounter more challenging for the party in other ways, such as splitting the party up for parts of the fight, having the monster flee and recover and such. If the party is smart and can prevent it from fleeing, prevent it from splitting them up, get around the traps or what have you, they're rewarded with a softer monster they can kill in less than 1000 rounds of at-wills.

 

[keterys]

Regicide... fwiw, Iron Heroes (Mearls) includes extensive information on using zones of various types (all the things mentioned) for making fights more interesting.

I rather imagine he just runs all his games like that.

I do find it interesting that you think the suggestions are just downright not interesting. That's just bizarre to me.

 

[Starbuck_II]

All Mike is saying is don't just make the solo fights slugfests.

Add some variety like cave-ins. I did.

I added a Rockslide trap effect that Dragon activated by hitting. I lowered Dragons level to MM one so he had only 200 hp, but the trap made up for it I think.
The battle was anything but boring.

 

[TheNovaLord]

party have made it to 3rd/4th
No solos used thus far
not sure they really fit the 'model'

 

[Tigerbunny]

I'm not seeing it being a big issue, at least by rough math.

Typical Damage Loadout of a 5th-Level PC

Based on DMG Page 42

E 3,1 + D 5, 1 + U2

Assume a D = High Limited, E = Medium Limited, U = Medium Normal damage expression. This is *really* rough, but seems in line with powers as far as I can tell.

55% hit rate

Daily 5 = 3d10 + 4 = 7-34, mean 20.5 = 11.3 hp
Daily 1 = 3d8 + 3 = 6-27, mean 16.5 = 9.1 hp
Encounter 3 = 2d10 + 3 = 5-23, mean 14 = 7.7 hp
Encounter 1 = 2d10 + 3 = 5-23, mean 14 = 7.7 hp
Utility 2 = 1d10 + 3 = 4-14, mean 8.5 = 4.7 hp

Subtotal before at-wills = 40.5 hp

5-character party Subtotal average damage yield = 202.5

Up against Young Red Dragon (Solo Soldier 7, 332 hp), they have it at 129, well past bloodied before they’re out of limited powers.

Now they have to use at-wills. At-will = Medium Normal, 1d10 + 3, mean 8.5, 4.7 output per attack

Per-round damage output for party using at-wills only = 23.5 hp. It will take them 6 more rounds to wear it down.

Yes, that could get dull.

Now, do 2 things.

Increase the hit rate to 65% (equivalent to a +2). This reflects cooperation for flanks, going after vulnerabilities, etc.

Assume that you get one good solid Medium Limited result from an environmental hazard or other encounter-specific resource per PC.

New Subtotal for limited resources

Daily 5 = 20.5 = 13.3
Daily 1 = 16.5 = 10.7
Encounter 3 = 14 = 9.1
Encounter 1 = 14 = 9.1
Utility 2 = 8.5 = 5.5
Hazard = 9.1

Per Character Output = 56.8 * 5 Characters = 284

This takes the dragon to only 48 hp remaining – just over 2 rounds of at-wills.

We’ll add 1 round of “overhead” for non-attack actions, so it takes 9 rounds to take it down. What can the dragon dish out in that period? About 12 hp per attack, so a total of 108 assuming 1 attack per round. Actually, being a solo, it’s going to be more like 2 attacks per round, so call it 216. Advantage: PCs.

A well-built solo encounter should be pretty tough, but not too bad of a slog for PCs who work well as a team and use encounter features to their advantage.

Go ahead and pick apart my math, though - I'm only so-so at this sort of thing.