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<blockquote data-quote="Elric" data-source="post: 4751878" data-attributes="member: 1139">This would really keep Orb Wizards in check <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />&nbsp; Having solos auto-make saves is a large change of the game's existing mechanics, though- maybe too large, since the saving throw bonus for a solo only ends up mattering on one-round effects.&nbsp; It also doesn't decrease the length of save-ends effects on solos that much.20/11 is the normal monster round expectation, so this is 2.75 as much effect.&nbsp; This proposal, like my most recent proposal above, has one round effects becoming 45% as effective as they used to be, though you've gone a little further by giving an immediate check to cancel them.&nbsp; That seems like a reasonable number, in general.Overall, this is getting close to my original proposal (solos make saves at the start of the round and can save against until end of turn effects then), except replacing solos having a &quot;+2 bonus to saves&quot; with a &quot;+0 bonus to saves.&quot;&nbsp; Issues of immediate saves vs. saves at the start of your turn aside (and exactly what conditions are covered, since our wordings are slightly different), if you make my original proposal +0 to saves you end up with average of 0.45 rounds for (until end of turn) effects and 0.82 for (save ends) effects.&nbsp;&nbsp; This is the same ratio of relative effectiveness as for a normal monster, though compared to the RAW status quo one-round effects have taken a bigger hit than (save ends).&nbsp; Also, my proposal here is horribly vulnerable to Orb Wizards and static save penalties, which would have to be HRd before you'd want to implement a fix like this one.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Elric, post: 4751878, member: 1139"] This would really keep Orb Wizards in check :) Having solos auto-make saves is a large change of the game's existing mechanics, though- maybe too large, since the saving throw bonus for a solo only ends up mattering on one-round effects. It also doesn't decrease the length of save-ends effects on solos that much. 20/11 is the normal monster round expectation, so this is 2.75 as much effect. This proposal, like my most recent proposal above, has one round effects becoming 45% as effective as they used to be, though you've gone a little further by giving an immediate check to cancel them. That seems like a reasonable number, in general. Overall, this is getting close to my original proposal (solos make saves at the start of the round and can save against until end of turn effects then), except replacing solos having a "+2 bonus to saves" with a "+0 bonus to saves." Issues of immediate saves vs. saves at the start of your turn aside (and exactly what conditions are covered, since our wordings are slightly different), if you make my original proposal +0 to saves you end up with average of 0.45 rounds for (until end of turn) effects and 0.82 for (save ends) effects. This is the same ratio of relative effectiveness as for a normal monster, though compared to the RAW status quo one-round effects have taken a bigger hit than (save ends). Also, my proposal here is horribly vulnerable to Orb Wizards and static save penalties, which would have to be HRd before you'd want to implement a fix like this one. [/QUOTE]

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