In the MM under improved grab it states:
"The creature ahs the option to conduct the grapple normall, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it suffers a -20 penalty to grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose it sDexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents."
The last paragraph than goes on to say:
"When a creature gets a hold after an imporved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The creature is not considered grappled while it holds the opponent, so it still threatens adjacent squares and retains its Dexterity bonus. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent's weight."
Do these two excerpts strike anyone else as somehow contradictory?
The first statement seems fine (and I believe the sage said that anyone can do this, not just someone with improved grab).
The second is what gets me.
It first says the opponent is pulled into the space of the creature with improved grab.
Ok, fine, so rather than the creature with improved grab moving into the opponent's square, vice-a-versa happens, the opponent moves into the square of the creature with improved grab.
It next states that this does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Why? As far as I can tell this is considered movement just like someone who is bullrushed against there will is considered to be undergoing movement. Despite it only being 5' (I think, I guess it could conceivably be more) wouldn't it still provoke an AoO? Or is this an instance, much like snatch, where the rules simply aren't consistent?
"The creature is not considered grappled..." - HUH?
Didn't the description just say that the creature had to take a -20 in order to be considered not grappling? Is this a contradiction or am I missing something (I am being serious, its not the first time I would have missed something totally obvious).
Last the description talks about movement while grappling. Up until this point, movement has never been a dynamic of grappling (that I am aware of anyway). The above description would leave me to believe that the creature can make a standard move if it has not already used up it MEA, dragging the opponent along with it. It says so long as the creature can drag the opponent's weight.
This seems slightly obscure. What about the character resisting the movement? If you win the grapple check, is this another option then - to take a move at your base speed as a MEA with the only consideration, the amount of weight you can drag? Moreover, does this dragging affect the creature's speed - I presume it does according to the encumberance rules.
So a few questions come up - succinctly:
Do you have to win an opposed grapple to move with your opponent?
If no, what method do you use?
If yes, is this the grapple check that includes the -20 penalty?
If yes, do you also deal grapple damage or do you require the constrict ability to do this?
If yes, how far can you move?
If yes, does this movement provoke AoO normally (would the opponent also be provoking AoO by his movement despite it being involuntary - again refer to bullrush analogy).
Would this movement ability with a winning opposed grapple apply to any creature? In other words, do you need the improved grab ability to utilize this grappling ability? I only ask because the -20 rule was extended to creatures without improved grab.
"The creature ahs the option to conduct the grapple normall, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it suffers a -20 penalty to grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose it sDexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents."
The last paragraph than goes on to say:
"When a creature gets a hold after an imporved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The creature is not considered grappled while it holds the opponent, so it still threatens adjacent squares and retains its Dexterity bonus. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent's weight."
Do these two excerpts strike anyone else as somehow contradictory?
The first statement seems fine (and I believe the sage said that anyone can do this, not just someone with improved grab).
The second is what gets me.
It first says the opponent is pulled into the space of the creature with improved grab.
Ok, fine, so rather than the creature with improved grab moving into the opponent's square, vice-a-versa happens, the opponent moves into the square of the creature with improved grab.
It next states that this does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Why? As far as I can tell this is considered movement just like someone who is bullrushed against there will is considered to be undergoing movement. Despite it only being 5' (I think, I guess it could conceivably be more) wouldn't it still provoke an AoO? Or is this an instance, much like snatch, where the rules simply aren't consistent?
"The creature is not considered grappled..." - HUH?
Didn't the description just say that the creature had to take a -20 in order to be considered not grappling? Is this a contradiction or am I missing something (I am being serious, its not the first time I would have missed something totally obvious).
Last the description talks about movement while grappling. Up until this point, movement has never been a dynamic of grappling (that I am aware of anyway). The above description would leave me to believe that the creature can make a standard move if it has not already used up it MEA, dragging the opponent along with it. It says so long as the creature can drag the opponent's weight.
This seems slightly obscure. What about the character resisting the movement? If you win the grapple check, is this another option then - to take a move at your base speed as a MEA with the only consideration, the amount of weight you can drag? Moreover, does this dragging affect the creature's speed - I presume it does according to the encumberance rules.
So a few questions come up - succinctly:
Do you have to win an opposed grapple to move with your opponent?
If no, what method do you use?
If yes, is this the grapple check that includes the -20 penalty?
If yes, do you also deal grapple damage or do you require the constrict ability to do this?
If yes, how far can you move?
If yes, does this movement provoke AoO normally (would the opponent also be provoking AoO by his movement despite it being involuntary - again refer to bullrush analogy).
Would this movement ability with a winning opposed grapple apply to any creature? In other words, do you need the improved grab ability to utilize this grappling ability? I only ask because the -20 rule was extended to creatures without improved grab.
