D&D 4E Some Thoughts on 4e

[HighTemplar]

Well, that isn't really true, is it? This edition offers a new way of doing critical hits, new way of doing hp, new way of doing healing, new way of doing skills...

I'm not sure that your comment makes any sense in this thread?!?

What I mean is that a lot that has been changed in the core mechanic was changed for balance purposes. I'm putting myself in the thread host's position. What his friends that deny 4e are seeing is not what's new and cool, but whats been removed/nerfed/changed for the worse like what ronin stated.

Every 4E Wizard is an Evocation specialist with a smidgen of control for all intents and purposes. zzzzzzzzzzz

Every 4E Cleric is an Evocation specialist with a handful of cures for all intents and purposes. zzzzzzzzzzz

Sure, each At Will and Per Encounter spell has some little twist added to it. But the spells are almost all damaging spells (Warlords have a few that are not).

We need more books really, but I'm giving 4e a chance

 

[Bond James Bond]

I have to ask - what are you doing out of combat with your characters? Are you taking advantage of the rituals to do some of the old Wiz/Clr tricks?

This is obviously one of the huge dividers between those that enjoy 4e and those that don't

A very good point.

Many players seem to forget that there are now rituals to take care of many of the non-evocation, non-combat issues. Since those utility rituals don`t take up you normal daily power "slots" (as in 3.X), a caster in some way has even more variety than in previous edtions.

Plus, i think there often is some misleading "the good old days feeling" in motion. While Wizards and clerics (but not bards or sorcs, e.g.) had potentially plenty of spells to choose from in former editions, It´s fair to say that most of the time, casters took the same standard spells anyway, because they where so good.

 

[KarinsDad]

I have to ask - what are you doing out of combat with your characters? Are you taking advantage of the rituals to do some of the old Wiz/Clr tricks?

No because for that purpose, Rituals are the equivalent of expensive scrolls. Like all limited resources, 4E Rituals are designed to be used as necessarily, not because they are "fun".

This is obviously one of the huge dividers between those that enjoy 4e and those that don't - that in this version, Wizards and Clerics don't have such a huge range of powers that in the hand of a competent player they start to make other classes look weak and unncessary.

I think there is a certain amount of truth in part of this. The players in our group who used to enjoy simple PCs (Barbarians, Fighters, Rogues) in 3E are for the most part satisfied with 4E. The players in our group who used to enjoy more complex PCs (Wizards, Clerics, Druids) in 3E are not satisfied with 4E. There is a definitive line in our group based on the type of PC players enjoy playing.

The game has been dummied down to the least common denominator.


And, versatility does not equate to lack of balance. Many weaker powers can be balanced with fewer stronger powers.

Unfortunately, every class is now balanced with fewer strong powers.

It was not just the versatility of 3E Wizards that made them unbalanced, it was the strength of their spells combined with their versatility.

A very good point.

Many players seem to forget that there are now rituals to take care of many of the non-evocation, non-combat issues. Since those utility rituals don`t take up you normal daily power "slots" (as in 3.X), a caster in some way has even more variety than in previous edtions.

It's not that people have forgotten, it's that those ritual spells can no longer be cast in combat AND all of those spells are now expensive.

And there is no more variety than in previous editions because PCs could create scrolls previously.

Nearly every 4E spell which is non-combat is a long casting ritual that costs (there are a small handful of spells like Jump that are not solely combat oriented).

While Wizards and clerics (but not bards or sorcs, e.g.) had potentially plenty of spells to choose from in former editions, It´s fair to say that most of the time, casters took the same standard spells anyway, because they where so good.

That hasn't changed. In fact, it has gotten worse. Casters are now forced by 4E game mechanics to use the same standard spells encounter after encounter after encounter. Before, at least there was an option.

Additionally, 3E Wizards and Clerics could augment their spell selection with scrolls that also could be cast in combat.

That option is gone in 4E as well. Hit with the nerf bat.

 

[LostSoul]

I'm going to re-post something I wrote in the forked thread:

One PC got in a pitfight with an ogre. The fix was in; the owner of the bar wanted the ogre to win.

There was a deathjump spider chained up in the pit, and once the PC was closest to it, he released it.

The Wizard asked me: "What is the spider's favourite food?"

"Make your nature check and you tell me."

He rolls, makes the Moderate DC. "They feed on rats and other vermin. Maybe the spider-tender gives him a dog or a cat or a lame horse as a treat."

"Cool. What are you going to do with that info?"

"I'm going to use Prestidigitation to create an illusion of rats swarming around the ogre's body so that the spider will go after him."

"Make an Int attack vs. the spider's Will."

He rolls, succeeds, and the spider starts biting the ogre, trying to get its food.​

 

[The Little Raven]

Hit with the nerf bat.

And knocked the ball all the way to Funville in the process. Thank God.

 

[KarinsDad]

And knocked the ball all the way to Funville in the process. Thank God.

So, it's more fun to not have the option of scrolls in combat than it is to have the option of scrolls in combat. Uh huh.

 

[ronin]

I am currently playing a wizard that just made level 7 at the end of the last session. I have 19 rituals in my spellbook and another 6 that I plan to purchase as soon as I am able. This doesn't even include any level 7 rituals- I haven't even looked at those yet. So far in my travels I have used the following rituals-

Comprehend Languages
Make Whole- we damaged a wagon (a part of the wagon) to keep it from escaping so I repaired it afterwards so we could use it.
Tenser's Floating Disk
Enchant Magic Item
Transferring Chant

I plan to use water walk soon as well. Like I said above I think rituals were a great addition to the game. The only negative about them so far is that I seem to be the only PC buying them, though the warlord did buy me the transferring chant ritual last session (only because he wants me to use it for him!).

I also like the cantrips and at will powers as well. I use mage hand quite a bit to get items into and out of my hands but also to pick up things that other PCs have dropped to return to them. I think thunderwave is great and use it all the time.

I do agree in previous editions most spellcasters had their favorite spells and their list didn't change a whole lot unless they knew of something specific and made adjustments. I also agree that in 4e the choices have really been made for us by the lack of options available. I suppose I don't like my "illusion" of choice being taken away from me!

Obviously as more books are released we'll get more choices (powers) which will definitely help everyone's versatility. It just seems that the martial PCs got more interesting while the spellcasting PCs became less interesting. Everything does seem fairly balanced though so maybe its worth it, guess we'll see.

 

[DracoSuave]

Meh.

If you -really- wanted to play a spellcaster with tons of options for all situations, you'd play Mage: The Ascension or Ars Magica, games designed around the concept of giving spellcasters tons of options.

The new system has put wizards and clerics on the same playing field as everyone else, and rituals cover the 'camp' magics. All it comes down to, is that there are now limitations on what those effects can do, and some of them require preparation in the casting rather than preparation in the memorization. Tenser's can still be used as a makeshift stretcher midbattle, you just have to cast it beforehand. Which isn't a bad idea anyways, as it'll last longer than it ever did in the past.

The trade-off is that more than two classes can be deep and involved, and that is a good thing.

 

[KarinsDad]

Tenser's can still be used as a makeshift stretcher midbattle, you just have to cast it beforehand. Which isn't a bad idea anyways, as it'll last longer than it ever did in the past.

Except that we have not had a PC fall unconscious since July. Casting it every single day (or on any given day) on the off chance that it could be used would be a total waste of money. Tenser's is a non-entity in our game "as a makeshift stretcher" because it cannot be cast in combat.

My Wizard took that ritual and it is a total waste of ink on my character sheet. The entire concept of rituals being only cast out of combat and costing money is a terrible one. It has ZERO to do with fun. It's a wart on the system put there because of the "every PC must have the same number and types of powers" balance syndrome.

If simple non-powerful rituals (like Tenser's Floating Disk, Phantom Steed, Knock, and Hand of Fate) could be cast in combat with the component expense (i.e. the equivalent of a scroll), or out of combat without the component expense (i.e. the equivalent of a miscellaneous non-balancing spell), then rituals would be fun. The in combat ones might require a skill check, even if the ritual typically does not. This would only apply to certain miscellaneous non-overwhelming spells, not ones like Raise Dead. I've made this house rule suggestion to my DM, but he hasn't gotten back on it (another possibility is to allow certain ritual scrolls to be cast as a standard action).

But as written, Rituals are a bit of a joke. All in the name of balance. The designers ripped most of the interesting non-damaging spells out of combat and said, well, you can only do these out of combat. Tough luck. And oh btw, we made scrolls non-combat as well.

Meh.

 

[Jack99]

I am not sure how it would balance out, but one idea could be to allow a ritual to be cast in combat at the expense of an action point. This would make it a fairly rare occurence, while giving the casters some more options to do fantastic things at times.