D&D 4E Some Thoughts on 4e

[DreamChaser]

I don't think that is the price for balance. There are other ways to balance a game without neutering an entire class concept.

I agree with you completely...which I think is why rogue and fighter (which were not previously unbalanced) did not get "neutered"

Wizards were (especially by the end of 3.5) able to do anything, at any time, in any situation better than any class. Even those that specialize in those things that specialize in that role.

There was **no** way of preserving what Wizards became in 3e and pretend any level of balance IMO. This basic idea is why illusionist, sorcerer, and necromancer will be out later to fill the key roles that were pulled out of the wizard class in the process if moving into 4e.

Additionally, having recently played a cleric, a bard, and an archivist, I can honestly say that the cleric's were great fighters who never got to fight because they were always healing. Bards just plain sucked (I didn't used to believe this but then I tried to play one at levels above 7...it sucked). The archivist was worse than the cleric. He wasn't even a good fighter (except that I took a bunch of shapechanger powers so during every combat I turned into a Bullette).

Essentially, the buffster/ healer role needed an overhaul.

As a first round of powers (comparing 4 months of 4e to 8 years of 3e), it is natural that the designers focused on evocation. Not only are those most fun for a huge portion of gamers, they are the easiest to get your head around as you learn a new system.

In short, I think that neither cleric nor wizard needs help to feel more like they used to...clerics had the illusion of option and wizards had simply way way way too many options.

DC

 

[Ydars]

Rituals are a great idea but the time and material component cost nerf them badly.

I am thinking of allowing a bit of vancian magic back in to 4e, to do with rituals. If during any rest, a spell caster completes 95% of any ritual, he can trigger its effect anytime and only pays the material component cost if he actually triggers the ritual.

Ritual casting is a full round action in combat and its use prevents use of a daily power until after the next extended rest. A caster can also only pre-prepare one ritual at a time in this way, although un-triggered rituals can be freely exchanged at any rest without triggering the material component cost. A mage can thus cast a number of pre-prepared rituals a day in combat (or other situations where time is a constaint) that is equal to the number of daily powers he possesses; but each casting reduces his daily spell allocation for that day by one.

I would just like to get the flavourful combat effects of magic back into the game without over-powering wizards again. Certain rituals could also be absolutely disallowed from such pre-preparation.

The good thing is that any class using rituals could also benefit; so balance should not be so much of an issue, particularly if the caster gives up his/her daillies.

The material component cost should also limit the abuse this is open to.

I have not played alot of 4E so how do people think this would work? This ability to pre-prepare rituals could actually also be made into a feat requiring feat investment as well.

 

[The Little Raven]

So, it's more fun to not have the option of scrolls in combat than it is to have the option of scrolls in combat. Uh huh.

Yes, it is more fun to not have the option of using Scroll of I'm Better Than the Rogue or a Wand of Forced Obsolescence For All Other Classes Above 7th Level.

 

[KarinsDad]

Yes, it is more fun to not have the option of using Scroll of I'm Better Than the Rogue or a Wand of Forced Obsolescence For All Other Classes Above 7th Level.

But it's ok to have a class (and even a race) that can Dimension Door all over the place at first level.

Yeah, that's balanced.


I find that the ability to cast Floating Disk in combat at first level is a LOT less unbalanced than the ability to Dimension Door in combat at first level.

Some people will defend the most outrageous stuff as balanced, just because it's what WotC wrote in a book.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

But it's ok to have a class (and even a race) that can Dimension Door all over the place at first level.

Yeah, that's balanced.

It would be unbalanced exactly how? What valuable ability does little gem make obsolete?

Weird, yes. Unbalanced? I do not see it.

 

[KarinsDad]

It would be unbalanced exactly how? What valuable ability does little gem make obsolete?

The other classes do not get this level of mobility and it nerfs Jump. This is no different than Knock nerfing Open Locks. Or Invisibility nerfing Hide. Those powers were extremely limited in combat in 4E, but teleport is handed out like candy.

Compare it to the Ranger shifting 3 squares. Not only does the PC with teleport avoid OAs like shift does, but he can also move vertically. At least in our games, combats are somewhat 3D. There are sometimes catwalks or library bookcases or balconies or city walls or building roofs to teleport up onto.

And forget about Bigby's Grasping Hand if the NPC has teleport. A Daily power, totally nerfed by a movement power.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The other classes do not get this level of mobility and it nerfs Jump. This is no different than Knock nerfing Open Locks. Or Invisibility nerfing Hide. Those powers were extremely limited in combat in 4E, but teleport is handed out like candy.

Compare it to the Ranger shifting 3 squares. Not only does the PC with teleport avoid OAs like shift does, but he can also move vertically. At least in our games, combats are somewhat 3D. There are sometimes catwalks or library bookcases or balconies or city walls or building roofs to teleport up onto.

And an Eladrin Ranger can use both tricks! Amazing, isn't it.

And forget about Bigby's Grasping Hand if the NPC has teleport. A Daily power, totally nerfed by a movement power.

No, not totally. It's a get-out-of-bigby's-grasping-hand once per encounter. Nothing more, nothing less.


Having two powers instead of one to move around with less or no hindrance can be a big deal. Just because one power is more effective then the other doesn't make the other useless - it just means you have more situations where you can get out of a difficult situation. And this is only the case because you can't use any powers indefinitely.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

The other classes do not get this level of mobility and it nerfs Jump. This is no different than Knock nerfing Open Locks. Or Invisibility nerfing Hide. Those powers were extremely limited in combat in 4E, but teleport is handed out like candy.

Compare it to the Ranger shifting 3 squares. Not only does the PC with teleport avoid OAs like shift does, but he can also move vertically. At least in our games, combats are somewhat 3D. There are sometimes catwalks or library bookcases or balconies or city walls or building roofs to teleport up onto.

And forget about Bigby's Grasping Hand if the NPC has teleport. A Daily power, totally nerfed by a movement power.

I have a very imaginative Eladrin paladin who has been using it to launch himself past the front line of opponents and attacking the second line - so far it's working great.

And if the Eladrin (who can't teleport through solid objects, by the way, so I don't think it nerfs locks or closed doors) can move around more easily - surely this is a good thing? It makes the game more interesting when people can move around more.

Plus, it's normally only 5 squares - with the guidelines on making the space in the adventure bigger to fit more people in it's hardly that big a deal.

 

[WalterKovacs]

The other classes do not get this level of mobility and it nerfs Jump. This is no different than Knock nerfing Open Locks. Or Invisibility nerfing Hide. Those powers were extremely limited in combat in 4E, but teleport is handed out like candy.

One note: Open Lock and the Knock Ritual are both extremely limited in combat, and I would argue were probably in 3rd as well. On the other hand, teleporting is "easier" than jumping ... but most situations that require jumping would involve the entire party getting over something ... one character doing it alone might help to swing a rope back, etc ... but it doesn't "nerf" jump. [Also, the asumption is a character only needs that one teleport per encounter].

A Warlock by the way has an at will attack that grants limited invisibility, which combined with the auto ability to gain concealment means he can meet the conditions of hiding from the person even after the invisibility goes away. The drow has an encounter power pseudo-invisibility as well. The gnome has built in invisibility. Etc, etc, etc.

Compare it to the Ranger shifting 3 squares. Not only does the PC with teleport avoid OAs like shift does, but he can also move vertically. At least in our games, combats are somewhat 3D. There are sometimes catwalks or library bookcases or balconies or city walls or building roofs to teleport up onto.

Warlocks get teleports like they are going out of style. A ranger on the other hand has a better damage output than the warlock. Rogue is arguably the biggest damage person ... yet his maneuverability is worse than both the ranger and the warlock. Not every class is going to be good at everything. Certain characters will be more mobile than others.

Also, you can shift around a corner, or through a curtain or some other object that blocks line of site [assuming you have enough movement] you can't teleport to a place you can't see.

And forget about Bigby's Grasping Hand if the NPC has teleport. A Daily power, totally nerfed by a movement power.

Yeah, who would want to have to use a move action to make a new attack after they escaped, doing damage each time. And, you can still use the standard action to slam people into each other after you've picked one up with the move. Heck, if only one escapes, they could be taking twice as much damage that round than if they just stayed in the hand.

You have an interesting view of nerfing. The daily power, regardless of if the person teleports out of it, is a CONSTANT conjuration that you get to attack with every turn. Heck, you can make attacks with it as a move action, and then if both hands are full get to do free damage. Having it be VERY easy to escape from doesn't stop it from grabbing the person again next turn. And, when that happen, unless it's a rechargeable or at-will, it probably isn't going to matter that much.

 

[The Little Raven]

But it's ok to have a class (and even a race) that can Dimension Door all over the place at first level.

Once per encounter, up to 5 squares (25 feet), within line of sight is "all over the place?" Hyperbole does not become you. And that single ability does not make an entire other class obsolete nor second fiddle.

Yeah, that's balanced.

Yes, a single ability to allow a single occurrence of movement once per encounter (less than the race's normal movement speed) is balanced, unlike having a class that can easily overcome every single role another class can fill, just by choosing the right spells or purchasing the right equipment.

Some people will defend the most outrageous stuff as balanced, just because it's what WotC wrote in a book.

And some people will defend the most outrageous stuff as balanced, just because it's tradition, or because it's something they like.