D&D 4E Some Thoughts on 4e

[ExploderWizard]

When I hear about depth, I think the biggest thing that is ignored are skills. Because there aren't a lot of mechanics to skills, people forget that they exist, yet they are the cornerstone of out of combat play. And no matter what class you are playing, with one feat you can be good in that skill. My fighter for example picked up diplomacy so I could have fun with the social aspect of the game, and its working great.

I agree. I think skills are given the back seat to everything else. Part of the problem is the "class based" skills mentality. If skills were able to be learned and trained equally by all classes then there could be some more diversity in characters.

Your fighter for example, is great . Classes are still penalized and restricted with regard to skill selection though. The relevant statistic should determine how good a character is with a skill, and not class.In 3.X
fighters got seriously shafted not only in skill points but in selection. Oh sure you could dump your tiny pool of skill points into a non-class skill to be different, but because of the rules hindering how many ranks you could have there was no chance regardless of talent to get close to a class skilled character.

4E changed a few things but kept the stupid class skill idea.

 

[Lacyon]

I agree. I think skills are given the back seat to everything else. Part of the problem is the "class based" skills mentality. If skills were able to be learned and trained equally by all classes then there could be some more diversity in characters.

Your fighter for example, is great . Classes are still penalized and restricted with regard to skill selection though. The relevant statistic should determine how good a character is with a skill, and not class.In 3.X
fighters got seriously shafted not only in skill points but in selection. Oh sure you could dump your tiny pool of skill points into a non-class skill to be different, but because of the rules hindering how many ranks you could have there was no chance regardless of talent to get close to a class skilled character.

4E changed a few things but kept the stupid class skill idea.

Happily, in 4E a single feat makes you just as trained as anyone else at any skill regardless, whereas 3E required multiclassing just to be allowed to max out an off-skill (and you still had to pay double ranks to get that as you advanced in your main class).

 

[WalterKovacs]

Also, there is the background idea from Forgotten Realms that allows for, based on where a character is from, they are able to have skills added to their class skill list, plus a small bonus. That can be a way to have a characters not need to spend a feat on "flavor".

 

[Brutoni]

Hi, i'm new to the boards and new to 4th Edition due to having just moved around the country (students are want to do that ). However one thing has always struck me as a somewhat strange occurance.

If you do not like a system, the people to complain to are not us. Write letters or emails to the company in question. The company will look at the number of those things coming in. Should they be less than a certain percentage of the sales being made. Well then, the company will of course ignore you. Although in some cases a magazine, seperate rulebook or something may be released in an attempt to appease the "experienced" pool of plays and reward loyalty.

At the end of the day they are a company, if 4th Ed is making a lot of sales they will not overhaul the whole system. So you have sent your letter but you want to make sure other people have noticed the points you feel are wrong about the game. That too is fine. Calling them the "masses"or "simple" in however a round about way is a false way to argue. You must address the core of the problem.

Here is the problem in my belief.

Some people love looking through hundreds of pages of book material (like 30 pages of spells alone for two classes) and even possibly multiple books in which to provide a uniform, agreed base to reality in their fantasy world.

I like a set of simple yet fluent rules that allow me to concentrate on the story. Should i as a DM, or a player think the rules are hindering some fantasy based combat, or some social environment. Well away go the rules and suddenly a Gandalf and the Balrog moment happens with a Party member. Ie they spontaneously develop a hideous ability that the rules could not explain in any logical way to have fun. Similarly while everyone can escape from a senario...sometimes the gm just says sorry guys its part of the plot.

No one likes being railroaded.....However i have a passionate dislike of players who love buggering up a story just so they can say "but i could use 4 of my spell slots a special ability and this and that to kill the bad guy, release and make my party invisible, unlock the doors and run out"...... great there goes the famous team escape from the evil vampire that possibly.....just possibly... demand a noble sacrifice from the team....

Queue hook....


Anyways, im getting drawn away from topic so ill shut up.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Hi, i'm new to the boards and new to 4th Edition due to having just moved around the country (students are want to do that ). However one thing has always struck me as a somewhat strange occurance.

If you do not like a system, the people to complain to are not us. Write letters or emails to the company in question. The company will look at the number of those things coming in. Should they be less than a certain percentage of the sales being made. Well then, the company will of course ignore you. Although in some cases a magazine, seperate rulebook or something may be released in an attempt to appease the "experienced" pool of plays and reward loyalty.

At the end of the day they are a company, if 4th Ed is making a lot of sales they will not overhaul the whole system. So you have sent your letter but you want to make sure other people have noticed the points you feel are wrong about the game. That too is fine. Calling them the "masses"or "simple" in however a round about way is a false way to argue. You must address the core of the problem.

Here is the problem in my belief.

Some people love looking through hundreds of pages of book material (like 30 pages of spells alone for two classes) and even possibly multiple books in which to provide a uniform, agreed base to reality in their fantasy world.

I like a set of simple yet fluent rules that allow me to concentrate on the story. Should i as a DM, or a player think the rules are hindering some fantasy based combat, or some social environment. Well away go the rules and suddenly a Gandalf and the Balrog moment happens with a Party member. Ie they spontaneously develop a hideous ability that the rules could not explain in any logical way to have fun. Similarly while everyone can escape from a senario...sometimes the gm just says sorry guys its part of the plot.

No one likes being railroaded.....However i have a passionate dislike of players who love buggering up a story just so they can say "but i could use 4 of my spell slots a special ability and this and that to kill the bad guy, release and make my party invisible, unlock the doors and run out"...... great there goes the famous team escape from the evil vampire that possibly.....just possibly... demand a noble sacrifice from the team....

Queue hook....


Anyways, im getting drawn away from topic so ill shut up.

You have some interesting points but they were kind of all over the place.

Are you saying that you prefer characters to "do what they are expected to do" rather than use all available resources to overcome the challenges that they face? If the goal is to have the players do X, just announce that the characters do X. Why play it out and waste time with dice?

 

[Brutoni]

Sorry about that. Had a bit of a hectic day and have let my tounge run away from me. When you get down to it. What i simply mean is that people get caught up TOO much in mechanics playing the game. It should be the mechanics are an interesting way to play out a story. I've seen groups bypass diplomacy at times and it simply become a conversation between an NPC and a PC that was played out very well by the DM and the Player.

When that can't happen...THEN the rules come into play. Admitidly that might be a lot of them time however there should still be some group accordance on the way a RP is heading.

My other points focused mainly on frustration that other people moan so much. Either inform the company directly, don't play the game or bring the points up in a way that doesn't insult a large number of unknown people indirectly.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Sorry about that. Had a bit of a hectic day and have let my tounge run away from me. When you get down to it. What i simply mean is that people get caught up TOO much in mechanics playing the game. It should be the mechanics are an interesting way to play out a story. I've seen groups bypass diplomacy at times and it simply become a conversation between an NPC and a PC that was played out very well by the DM and the Player.

When that can't happen...THEN the rules come into play. Admitidly that might be a lot of them time however there should still be some group accordance on the way a RP is heading.

My other points focused mainly on frustration that other people moan so much. Either inform the company directly, don't play the game or bring the points up in a way that doesn't insult a large number of unknown people indirectly.

Ok then I hear ya. I understand the frustration of dealing with people who are so used to rule heavy systems they look like a deer caught in the headlights if faced with a RP situation when there isn't anything to roll.

On the other hand, forums are a good place to discuss what we do or do not like about both the games we play, and those we game with. If you cant bitch and moan on the intarwebs what else is there?

 

[CubeKnight]

Ok then I hear ya. I understand the frustration of dealing with people who are so used to rule heavy systems they look like a deer caught in the headlights if faced with a RP situation when there isn't anything to roll.

On the other hand, forums are a good place to discuss what we do or do not like about both the games we play, and those we game with. If you cant bitch and moan on the intarwebs what else is there?

Porn?

 

[Brutoni]

lmao, i think introducing porn is way off topic. Though perhaps some might see your point lol.

 

[CubeKnight]

lmao, i think introducing porn is way off topic. Though perhaps some might see your point lol.

Well, he was asking what else was on teh intarwebz, and given that porn is about 99% of the internet...