Some Thoughts on Revising Multi-classing feats

[AbdulAlhazred]

I would prefer to let each player choose, for each character, which 4E multiclassing feats to use.

For PCs who tend toward Paragon multiclassing, they can use the existing framework with no changes. However for PCs that are not going to take Paragon multiclassing, introduce two new feats (not revised versions of existing feats) to accomplish the multiclassing. Based on Balesir's first notion, here's my new draft:

Nothing here gives class features. I'm afraid people might have to make do with class-specific and feature-specific feats for that. Several such feats already exist.

The problem of course being the existing PMC framework is just borked. It would HELP a bit if the character could use 'Branching Further' as the PMC requirement instead of the old path that took more feats, but even that doesn't really make PMC worth it without some sort of AP mechanic (at least, and then you are still short of some features compared to many PPs, though at least you do have a nice power selection and possibly a really useful at-will).

The old class feature feats aren't bad, those could certainly stand, though I feel like with at least some PMCs it would be nice to get something free out of the other class. There are also many newer classes that really won't work without some extra 'hook'. It could be a new class feature feat, but in some cases it is basically a feat tax as for instance Slayer isn't a lot of use without the ability to pick a stance or two, etc.

 

[sabrinathecat]

There is one feat that lets a multi-class character swap one power from primary class out for a power from the secondary class, and it can be taken multiple times with different powers. That's a massive and impractical feat tax.


I still like the 1 feat for class feature & skill/feat access, one for at-will.
Having both opens up free access to both classes powers, paragon paths, and epic destinies.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

There is one feat that lets a multi-class character swap one power from primary class out for a power from the secondary class, and it can be taken multiple times with different powers. That's a massive and impractical feat tax.


I still like the 1 feat for class feature & skill/feat access, one for at-will.
Having both opens up free access to both classes powers, paragon paths, and epic destinies.

a full at-will is REALLY good, so I wasn't unhappy that you had to PMC to get it, it was the 3rd feat and the general poorness of PMCing. I think what you propose would be a no-brainer for every build basically. Not that MCing isn't already VERY common, but that's one reason I'd exile skill training to a different place, like in the PMC itself. Skill Training becomes a bit more of a viable feat too. ENCOUNTER level access ala Half Elf might be part of the 2nd feat. I'm not sure total access to all powers of the other class totally makes sense either, what is the point of a PMC then?

 

[sabrinathecat]

a full at-will is REALLY good, so I wasn't unhappy that you had to PMC to get it, it was the 3rd feat and the general poorness of PMCing. I think what you propose would be a no-brainer for every build basically. Not that MCing isn't already VERY common, but that's one reason I'd exile skill training to a different place, like in the PMC itself. Skill Training becomes a bit more of a viable feat too. ENCOUNTER level access ala Half Elf might be part of the 2nd feat. I'm not sure total access to all powers of the other class totally makes sense either, what is the point of a PMC then?

So, you would be "stuck" with the at-wills of your starting class? Sounds like a good idea to me.

Just checking: PMC=Player Multi Class? Sorry, but too many contractions out there for me to keep track of them all.

 

[Balesir]

Just checking: PMC=Player Multi Class? Sorry, but too many contractions out there for me to keep track of them all.

PMC = "Paragon Multi Class". The option to miss out on a Paragon Path at level 11+ and take powers from your second class instead. Specifically:

- IF you take a total of FOUR feats (original MC feat plus Novice, Acolyte and Adept feats for encounter, daily and utility powers) you can PMC

- At 11th level you get to swap (not add) an At-Will from the secondary class in place of one from your original class; you also get to choose a 7th level Encounter power from your second class

- At 12th level you get a 10th level Utility power from your second class

- At 20th level you get a 19th level Daily power from your second class

No AP ability, no additional class features, no neat 16th level path feature - the words "second class" seem to me to be incredibly appropriate, in fact.

I understand the reticence to "give away" At-Wills, but a feat to give one as an "Encounter" ability that becomes fully "At-Will" upon PMCing does not seem unreasonable. You can only use one At-Will at a time, so adding them rather than swapping is not really that big a deal (as WotC realised later on).

In general, though, a feat tax per power to swap Encounters, Dailys and Utilities is extremely harsh, and a 4 feat requirement for a Paragon Path substitute that delivers sub-level powers and no features is completely unattractive. I think the designers were overreacting to the hopelessly overpowered multiclassing in 3.5 and never really revisited the system, substituting the rather dodgy "hybrid" rules for it instead.

After a bit of thought, I would keep to more or less what I said in my earlier post to this thread, but make the At-Will feat just as I described in this post. I would add in feats for class features for each class, with the more powerful ones taking two feats but with PMC counting as the first feat of each pair for the purposes of getting the second. For example:

- A feat with a prereq. of the Rogue MC feat allows sneak attack once per Encounter

- A second feat with the above feat as a prereq. allows sneak attack per round. PMC Rogue may count instead of the above feat as a prereq. for this feat.

At 11th level you get an ability when you expend an AP, generally an extra use (if already spent) of a class feature.

At 16th level you get an ability for use either when bloodied, when using s second wind or when reducing a foe to 0 hit points, generally a class-appropriate immediate boon.

At 11th level you get any additional Encounter power from either class (subject to the "no more than half of the powers in each category may be from the second class" which always applies). The power must be both at or below the character's level and at or below 13th level.

At 12th level you get a Utility power from either class of level equal to or less than both the character's level and 16th level, subject to the same conditions as the 11th level Encounter power.

At 20th level, you get a Daily power subject to conditions just as for the previous two, with the "level cap" being 22nd level.

That would need playtesting, but anyone who wants to try is welcome! Please feed back here.

If I get inspired I might take a stab at the feats and 11th/16th level abilities for at least the "base" (PHB) classes.

 

[Manbearcat]

I'm in agreement with everything you've written in this thread. [MENTION=27160]Balesir[/MENTION] I'd run an adventuring day's worth of PbP combats (a pair of hard encounters; level n + 3, n + 4) to playtest what you're depicting above. That is typically how I QC these types of changes (but I'm not inclined to run the test myself right now nor do I have time!). If you can get 3 other folks to make characters, let me know and I'll compose a battlemap (which we can reuse for both combats), a pair of enemy forces and we can check it out. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would be a datapoint. Running the same combat series again with an appropriate analogue (role et al) subbed in for the mutliclass project character would be ideal but that would require a lot of time!

 

[sabrinathecat]

Paragon Multi-Class seems like a pretty daft Paragon Path. Loosing that doesn't seem like much of a loss. Many of the feats from the beginning PHB are made borderline useless by later feats. This might be an improvement in the overall scheme as well.
Maybe as a paragon feat, have a multi-class feat that give the character an at-will from 2nd class.
Now we're up to 3 Multi-class feets. That should be plenty.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I am opposed to a general free power choice for multiclass characters. There might be too much unwanted synergy effects here.
The Fighter for example marks with every attack, even if not a fighter attack. If you multiclass that with a class that has plenty of close burst and area burst powers, you might create a monster (and you don't need to sacrifice any of the fighter survivability benefits, like hit points, healing surges, armor, and defensive utilty powers.

Of course, being that we talk house rules anyway, you can handle problematic scenarios yourself, too, I suppose.

But pretending I'd be the 4.25 game designer, I want a generic solutions with "less" risks.

I would want to keep the swap feats, but give at least some of them a bit of an extra. "Feat Plus" for feats you normally wouldn't take. (How many people take Linguist, Skill Focus or the Extra Skill Power feat, for example.)

And paragon multiclassing definitely needs a buff. The powers you can pick from your multiclass there don't follwo my usual cherrypicking/synergy concerns. If those exist ,they exist also for normal Paragon Paths (especially with multiclassing). But you sacrifice 3 paragon path features for them, that's basically never worth it.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I am opposed to a general free power choice for multiclass characters. There might be too much unwanted synergy effects here.
The Fighter for example marks with every attack, even if not a fighter attack. If you multiclass that with a class that has plenty of close burst and area burst powers, you might create a monster (and you don't need to sacrifice any of the fighter survivability benefits, like hit points, healing surges, armor, and defensive utilty powers.

Of course, being that we talk house rules anyway, you can handle problematic scenarios yourself, too, I suppose.

But pretending I'd be the 4.25 game designer, I want a generic solutions with "less" risks.

I would want to keep the swap feats, but give at least some of them a bit of an extra. "Feat Plus" for feats you normally wouldn't take. (How many people take Linguist, Skill Focus or the Extra Skill Power feat, for example.)

And paragon multiclassing definitely needs a buff. The powers you can pick from your multiclass there don't follwo my usual cherrypicking/synergy concerns. If those exist ,they exist also for normal Paragon Paths (especially with multiclassing). But you sacrifice 3 paragon path features for them, that's basically never worth it.

Yes, its true, there are some problems with easy unlimited power swapping. Hybrids deliberately limited benefits like marking to powers from the parent class, and most striker benefits likewise. On the other hand the existing MCing already has the issue you describe. Consider, a level 6 fighter can already have 3 power swaps, including an encounter and a daily power (and in some cases might also have acquired some sort of additional power from another class as well), and could gain another from a Theme. I'd think this is more than enough to 'break' things if they were to be broken. What would unlimited power swaps add on top of that? Probably nothing. Truthfully 4e MCing does walk a line. This is one reason for instance I don't like the idea of pre-PMC at-will access, and there certainly needs to be a give-up of at least 2 feats, plus probably a 3rd one at Paragon you would need to add that last finishing touch of your 2nd class when you PMC.

The real problem with MCing is just that the designer asks the player to give up a very tangible feat benefit for one that provides nothing really new. Its a power swap, yes, you have access to new powers, but its not like you have something every other character doesn't have, just slightly more of it (power choice). It never feels like a good trade-off when you make it, and you do end up with a bit weaker character, which just confirms that. In many cases the benefits of say an encounter power swap are really pretty good, the fighter getting an area burst ranged power for instance. It just doesn't quite feel that way. Something has to address that feeling to make it a really appealing system.

 

[Balesir]

I am opposed to a general free power choice for multiclass characters. There might be too much unwanted synergy effects here.
The Fighter for example marks with every attack, even if not a fighter attack. If you multiclass that with a class that has plenty of close burst and area burst powers, you might create a monster (and you don't need to sacrifice any of the fighter survivability benefits, like hit points, healing surges, armor, and defensive utilty powers.

I'm aware of the danger, here, but I'm not really convinced by it - especially not in this example. The Fighter gets most of its benefit from marking when the marked opponents are adjacent to the fighter - Combat Challenge (combined with Combat Superiority - the combination is a real hard lock!) is generally far more of a control than the -2 to hit from a mark. That generally means that Area powers are not that big a deal. Close powers are very useful for the fighter - but they get several of those already. Better yet, they get Close powers that pull enemies towards them, rather than push them away*.

A more problematic issue might be a fighter getting Wizard control powers that make damaging zones that the fighter can move enemies into, but given the action economy I'm not even sure that that is too big a deal.

Overall, for most non-At-Will powers, I'm not convinced that there is really a problem; the MC character is paying at least a feat for the ability to swap anyway (so, arguably, it should/could be a teensy bit better than a power from their own class). Individual powers might cause an issue (I haven't checked through them all), but as a general rule I don't see a problem.

*: I should say that I have a PC Dragonborn Fighter I run for; they get dragon breath Close Blast that marks every target. We have been playing from level 1 to early Epic, so far, and it's really not a big issue.