Sorc Vs Wiz - An Alternative

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

This thread is to discuss viable alternatives to the Sorc vs Wiz issues as identified by players and GM's, of balances and differences.

Ground Rule concepts include the following:

1) Sorceror vs Wizard from a balance perspective doesn't balance in extensive play. If you don't agree - no need to post it here, there's other threads for that. If you agree, feel free to weigh in with an opinion

2) Regardless of whether or not Sorc Vs Wiz balances, many players feel that they have issues regarding that balance, and the goal here is to design a new core class that combines the two, yet remains balanced in respect to at least one of those two, and the other classes.

3) Spellpoint systems could easily create this class, but we want to maintain as much DnD flavor as possible, so other avenues of thoughts need to be pursued.

Some considerations:
-The class should be able to do both spontaneous casting and prepared casting, though not in such a way that is capable of casting significantly more than either wiz/sorc alone could.

-The class should still have requirements for spellcasting that include the necessity of a spellbook and studying of spells on a daily basis.

-The class 'could' have the capability to utilize hit points to fuel magic

-The class 'could' have the ability to cast spells of slightly higher level than sorc/wiz, albeit at great cost

-The class 'could' have the penalty of always suffering an arcane spell failure.


I'd like to invite Alkabong to post his recently modified mage class here as a starting point. We'd been discussing it in a different thread, and he had gotten several good ideas for changing things around a bit.

I'd also like to invite anyone with an opinion to weigh in, provided the ground rule concepts above are noted

 

[alkabong]

Tilla,

I'd be happy to post my class. A few notes first:

- This class was created in an attempt to make a "meta" class for the wizard and sorcerer. The idea was that you could "build" a wizard or "build" a sorcerer using these rules by choosing a certain feat progression for your character. By spending additional feats, it would be possible to mix and match prepared casting with spontaneous casting.

- This class attempts to use standard charts and rules whenever possible. Thus, spontaneous casters use their Charisma score. Prepared casters use their Intelligence score. This doesn't change if the character blends abilities from sorcerer and wizard.

- When you receive spells/day from both the sorcerer chart and wizard chart, they do not stack. You have to "give up" prepared slots to add "free" slots. Free slots don't hold spells and can only be used to cast mastered spells.

- The mage class balances the ability for sorcerers to become "mage-like" or vice versa by requiring the character spend many feats (and have a good Charsisma and Intelligence score) to truly excel at the combination. Taking fewer feats can give the character a minor advantage as well - like a sorcerer taking Arcane Preparation. There were some suggestions on the previous thread about adding arcane failure or something like that as an alternative balancing mechansim, but I don't want to fiddle with game mechanics.

Mage​

The mage is a flexible spellcasting class that is able to prepare arcane spells like a wizard and spontaneously cast arcane spells like a sorcerer or bard.

Abilities: Intelligence is used to determine how powerful a prepared spell the Mage can cast, how many bonus spells they can prepare, and how hard prepared spells are to resist. Charisma is used to determine how powerful a spontaneous spell the Mage can cast, how many bonus spells they can spontaneously cast, and how hard spontaneously cast spells are to resist. To cast a prepared spell, a mage must have an Intelligence score of 10 + the spell’s level. To spontaneously cast a mastered spell, a mage must have a Charisma score of 10 + the spell’s level. Like a wizard or sorcerer, a mage benefits from high Dexterity and Constitution scores.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d4.

Class Skills
The mage’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (All Skills Taken Individually)(Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int). See Chapter 4 of the Player’s Handbook for more information.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) X 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier

Class Features

Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save RefSave WillSave Special
1 +0 +0 +0 +2 3 Arcane Bonus Feats, Call Familiar
2 +1 +0 +0 +3
3 +1 +1 +1 +3
4 +2 +1 +1 +4
5 +2 +1 +1 +4 Arcane Bonus Feat
6 +3 +2 +2 +5
7 +3 +2 +2 +5
8 +4 +2 +2 +6
9 +4 +3 +3 +6
10 +5 +3 +3 +7 Arcane Bonus Feat
11 +5 +3 +3 +7
12 +6/+1 +4 +4 +8
13 +6/+1 +4 +4 +8
14 +7/+2 +4 +4 +9
15 +7/+2 +5 +5 +9 Arcane Bonus Feat
16 +8/+3 +5 +5 +10
17 +8/+3 +5 +5 +10
18 +9/+4 +6 +6 +11
19 +9/+4 +6 +6 +11
20 +10/+5 +6 +6 +12 Arcane Bonus Feat

Game Rule Information
First level mages start with three arcane bonus feats. At least one of these must be either Arcane Preparation or Spontaneous Casting. If a mage selects the Arcane Preparation feat, it is important to also choose Arcane Transcription so that the mage can add new spells to his spellbook and prepare spells from his spellbook. If a mage selects the Spontaneous Casting feat, it is important to master at least some spells using the Arcane Mastery feat. By spending more feats, it is also possible to mix and match to create a character that prepares spells and uses a spell book, but can also spontaneously cast some mastered spells.

If your character has both Arcane Preparation and Spontaneous Casting, you gain a number of spells/day from both Table 3-18: The Wizard and Table 3-16: The Sorcerer. You determine the number of spells per day for each spell level separately, by choosing the larger number from each table, using your mage level as wizard level or sorcerer level respectively. Remember to include your Intelligence bonus for Table 3-18: The Wizard and your Charisma bonus for Table 3-16: The Sorcerer. Each morning, you decide how many spells slots are free and how many are filled with a prepared spell. Your number of spells per day from Table 3-18: The Wizard, modified for your Intelligence bonus, is the maximum number of spell slots that you can fill with a prepared spell. Your number of spells per day from Table 3-16: The Sorcerer, modified for your Charisma bonus, is the maximum number of spell slots that you can mark as free.

For example, if you would get 5/3 spells per day as a sorcerer and 3/1 spells per day as a wizard, you can:
- Leave 5/3 slots "free" and have no prepared spells
- Prepare 3/1 spells and leave 2/2 slots "free"
- You can't prepare more than 3/1 spells per day.
- You can't leave more than 5/3 slots "free" per day

Sorcerers are mages who begin by taking the bonus feats Spell Mastery 0 & 1, Spell Mastery 2 & 3, and Spontaneous Caster. At 5th level, sorcerers gain Spell Mastery 4 & 5. At 10th level, sorcerers gain Spell Mastery 6 & 7. At 15th level, sorcerers gain Spell Mastery 8 & 9.

Wizards are mages who begin by taking the bonus feats Arcane Preparation, Arcane Transcription, and Scribe Scroll. They gain arcane bonus feats at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level.

New Feats/Class Abilities
SPONTANEOUS CASTING [Metamagic]
You may mark a number of spell slots as free, from which you can cast any spell that you have mastered.
Prerequisite: You must have taken the metamagic feat Spell Mastery at least once before you can take this feat.
Benefit: You gain access to a number of spells per day according to Table 3-16: The Sorcerer in the Player’s Handbook, using your level as Mage for sorcerer level. A character with a high Charisma may receive bonus spells – see Table 1-1: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells in the Player’s Handbook. These spell slots can be left free. Any spells that you have mastered can be cast from a free slot of the same or higher level. You need a Charisma score of 10 + the spell’s level in order to spontaneously cast a spell. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a mage’s spontaneously cast spell is 10 + the spell level + the mage’s Charisma modifier.

IMPROVED SPONTANEOUS CASTING [Metamagic]
You can cast a mastered spell by using a spell slot containing a prepared spell.
Prerequisite: Spontaneous Casting, Caster Level 5th, Int 13, Cha 13
Benefit: You can use a spell slot containing a prepared spell that has not been cast, in order to cast a spell that you have mastered. You must use a spell slot that is equal to or is a higher level than the mastered spell. As with spontaneous casting, you need a Charisma score of 10 + the spell's level in order to spontaneously cast a spell. The Difficult Class for a saving throw against a spontaneously cast spell is 10 + the spell level + the mage's Charisma modifier.

ARCANE PREPARATION [Metamagic]
You can prepare an arcane spell ahead of time.
Prerequisite: You must be able to cast arcane spells as a mage or sorcerer before you can select this feat.
Benefit: Each day, you are able to prepare a number of spells per day according to Table 3-18: The Wizard in the Player’s Handbook, using your level as mage for wizard level. A character with a high Intelligence may receive bonus spells – see Table 1-1: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells in the Player’s Handbook. This also allows you to prepare a spell with a metamagic feat ahead of time, casting it as a standard action. If you have the Arcane Transcription feat, you may prepare spells from a spellbook as a wizard would. If you have the Spell Mastery feat, you may prepare any spell that you have mastered. You use a spell slot equal to or higher than the level of the spell (modified by any metamagic feats). You need an Intelligence score of 10 + the spell’s level in order to cast a prepared spell. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a mage’s prepared spell is 10 + the spell level + the mage’s Intelligence modifier.

SPELL MASTERY [Metamagic]
You can master a certain number of arcane spells, which allows you to prepare or spontaneously cast them without a spell book.
Prerequisite: You must be able to cast arcane spells as a mage.
Benefit: You can use two columns from Table 3-17 (Sorcerer Spells Known) on page 49 of the Player’s Handbook to determine the number of spells that you have mastered, using your level as mage for sorcerer level.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. It’s effects do not stack - each time that you take this feat, it allows you to master spells from two additional spell levels that you have not already selected.
Normal: All arcane spellcasters automatically master the Read Magic cantrip.

ARCANE TRANSCRIPTION [Metamagic]
You can record spells in a spell book, which allows you to record spells that you may not have mastered and prepare them.
Prerequisite: You must have the arcane bonus feat Arcane Preparation before you can take this feat.
Benefit: You can add new spells to spell books and prepare spells from your spellbook. Additionally, the cost of scribing a scroll decreases; you use the Wizard column in Table 8-43 and 8-44 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide to determine scroll base cost.
Normal: Mages use the Sorcerer column in Tables 8-43 and 8-44 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide to determine scroll base cost.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

New Feats/Class Abilities
SPONTANEOUS CASTING [Metamagic]
You may mark a number of spell slots as free, from which you can cast any spell that you have mastered.
Prerequisite: You must have taken the metamagic feat Spell Mastery at least once before you can take this feat.
Benefit: You gain access to a number of spells per day according to Table 3-16: The Sorcerer in the Player’s Handbook, using your level as Mage for sorcerer level. A character with a high Charisma may receive bonus spells – see Table 1-1: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells in the Player’s Handbook. These spell slots can be left free. Any spells that you have mastered can be cast from a free slot of the same or higher level. You need a Charisma score of 10 + the spell’s level in order to spontaneously cast a spell. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a mage’s spontaneously cast spell is 10 + the spell level + the mage’s Charisma modifier.

And what stops a wizard from taking this metamagic feat? Or a sorc from taking the arcane preparation feat? Etc.?

As feats, I think these abilities break your mage class. If you made them exclusive to the mage class aka class abilities, that might help to fix them some.

Other than that - I notice you haven't yet (or will you?) incorporate any of the suggestions from the other thread?


Personally, after much reflection, and re-reading this class again (even more closely) I've come to the following conclusion -

Let Sorc and Wiz stand as is. Do not create a whole new class, just allow the following feats, and assign appropriate ones to the sorc and wiz classes as startup feats. These will allow a wizard or sorc to cross over to sorc abilities, without overbalancing. A wizard who loses their spell book essentially becomes a slightly deficient sorceror, or a sorceror who wishes can start preparing spells ahead of time with the proper feats.


SPELL MASTERY [Metamagic]
Benefit: You can prepare a number of spells without your spell book as determined by the table on 3-17 on page 49 of the PHB as though you were a second level sorceror. This number cannot exceed the number of spells you are allowed to cast per day.

Prerequisite: You must be able to cast third level arcane spells as a wizard.

Special: You can take this feat multiple times. It’s effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, increase the level of sorceror you reference on table 3-17 by two. Thus, the second time you take this feat, you would look under level 4 sorcerors spells known to determine the number of spells at each level you can prepare without a spell book.

Normal: All arcane spellcasters automatically master the Read Magic cantrip.


SPONTANEOUS CASTING [Metamagic]
Provided that you have deliberately not filled a spell slot of your spells per day of a given level with a prepared spell, you can spontaneously cast a spell of that level or lower that you have mastered as per the spell mastery feat. Note that you cannot prepare a spell, cast that spell, then use that spell slot to spontaneously cast.

Prerequisite: You must have taken the metamagic feat Spell Mastery at least once before you can take this feat.

Benefit: You gain the ability to spontaneously cast spells of a given level if you have not prepared spells of that level on a one for one basis. You also gain bonus spell slots in accordance with your charisma bonus, if any, as though you were a sorceror. These bonus slots can only be used to spontaneously cast spells.

Special: You need a Charisma score of 10 + the spell’s level in order to spontaneously cast a spell. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a mage’s spontaneously cast spell is 10 + the spell level + the mage’s Charisma modifier.


IMPROVED SPONTANEOUS CASTING [Metamagic]
You can cast a mastered spell by using a spell slot containing a prepared spell.

Prerequisite: Spontaneous Casting, Caster Level 5th

Benefit: As per Spontaneous Casting, except that you can use a spell slot containing a prepared spell. Bonus spell slots do not stack and can still only be used for spontaneous casting.

ARCANE PREPARATION [Metamagic]
You can prepare an arcane spell ahead of time.

Prerequisite: You must have either Arcane Transcription or Spell Mastery as well as the ability to spontaneously cast arcane spells before you can select this feat.

Benefit: You can prepare spells each day as though you were a wizard. You may also gain bonus spells per day due to a high intelligence as though you were a wizard. These bonus spells per day can only be used to cast prepared spells. You need an Intelligence score of 10 + the spell’s level in order to cast a prepared spell. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a prepared spell is 10 + the spell level + the caster's Intelligence modifier.

ARCANE TRANSCRIPTION [Metamagic]
You can record spells in a spell book, and prepare the spells from the spellbook.

Prerequisite: You must have the arcane bonus feat Arcane Preparation before you can take this feat.
Benefit: You can add new spells to your spell books and prepare spells from your spellbook.

 

[alkabong]

And what stops a wizard from taking this metamagic feat? Or a sorc from taking the arcane preparation feat? Etc.?

Well, as this is meant to be a meta-class, I see these feats as being open to both sorcerer and wizard. I would encourage a sorcerer to take arcane preparation if they have a reasonable intelligence, especially if they have any metamagic feats, for example.

As feats, I think these abilities break your mage class. If you made them exclusive to the mage class aka class abilities, that might help to fix them some.

Not quite true. Notice that the spell mastery feat requires at least one level in mage. Also note that arcane preparation requires mage or sorcerer levels. Further feats require these feats as prerequisites, effectively limiting this to mages.

Other than that - I notice you haven't yet (or will you?) incorporate any of the suggestions from the other thread?

Although I appreciated all of the suggestions, I didn't like the manner in which they broke game mechanics and/or balance. Some of them (like adding some verbiage to the feat descriptions for transcription) I partially did, but out of laziness didn't include them here - sorry! The only one I'm still mulling over is whether to makes these class abilities rather than feats in order to restrict their use. I think the prerequisites probably do a good enough job here...

Let Sorc and Wiz stand as is. Do not create a whole new class, just allow the following feats, and assign appropriate ones to the sorc and wiz classes as startup feats. These will allow a wizard or sorc to cross over to sorc abilities, without overbalancing. A wizard who loses their spell book essentially becomes a slightly deficient sorceror, or a sorceror who wishes can start preparing spells ahead of time with the proper feats.

This is a good point - the methods I'm using would work perfectly with that approach, and simplify the class. There were niggling details, though, that I felt needed to be solved by making it a seperate class, for example class skills (why do sorcerers get Bluff anyways?) and cost to scribe scrolls. This sounds like a good approach.

SPELL MASTERY [Metamagic]
Benefit: You can prepare a number of spells without your spell book as determined by the table on 3-17 on page 49 of the PHB as though you were a second level sorceror. This number cannot exceed the number of spells you are allowed to cast per day.

Prerequisite: You must be able to cast third level arcane spells as a wizard.

Special: You can take this feat multiple times. It’s effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, increase the level of sorceror you reference on table 3-17 by two. Thus, the second time you take this feat, you would look under level 4 sorcerors spells known to determine the number of spells at each level you can prepare without a spell book.

This idea violates one of the principle axioms behind my initial design: At no point should a mage be able to know more spells that a sorcerer of the same level. (Similarily, no mage should be able to prepare more spells than a wizard of the same level, and no mage should be able to spontaneously cast more spells than a sorcer of the same level). You could take this feat multiple times and get access to higher level spells than a sorcerer of the same level could.

I also don't understand where some of your numbers come from:
- You have to be a fifth level mage? Why fifth level?
- You get to spells as a second level sorcerer. Why second level sorcerer at 5th level?
- You can take it multiple times and it goes up by two levels? Why two levels?
- Why can't your character master spells at first level like a sorcerer?
This doesn't seem balanced and doesn't correspond to a classic wizard or sorcerer at all - it seems contrived and complex.

However, the concept of using feats/class abilities and adding them to stock sorcerers or wizards makes a lot of sense. Basically, wizards start out with arcane preparation, arcane transcription, and scribe scroll. Sorcerers start out with spontaneous casting, spell mastery 0 & 1, and spell mastery 2 & 3 (using my initial version of spell mastery). From there they can gain additional feats in order to take on more abilities providing that they meet the prerequisites.

One last thing: I noticed that you removed the min Cha prerequisite from improved spontaneous casting. Probably a good idea since no-one would take this feat without a good Int and Cha anyway. Is this why it's been removed? If so, that makes sense to me.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

Well, as this is meant to be a meta-class, I see these feats as being open to both sorcerer and wizard. I would encourage a sorcerer to take arcane preparation if they have a reasonable intelligence, especially if they have any metamagic feats, for example.

If they are fully opened to both classes, you remove the need for a new core class. It's easier for a player to accept a handful of new feats as opposed to an entirely new class.

As for modifying the skills list (Sorc and Bluff??) - that's what I call house rules - it doesn't seem to prompt the need for a whole new class...

Not quite true. Notice that the spell mastery feat requires at least one level in mage. Also note that arcane preparation requires mage or sorcerer levels. Further feats require these feats as prerequisites, effectively limiting this to mages.

So what makes a mage different than a wizard for spell mastery? I.E. why does a character _have_ to be a mage before they can master spells? I didn't like any of the answers I came up with.

The only one I'm still mulling over is whether to makes these class abilities rather than feats in order to restrict their use. I think the prerequisites probably do a good enough job here...

I'd rather see them as feats, but that's because I'm arguing to remove the new class and just make the feats available. Your players will see that a sorc and wizard become very similar in later levels with the right feat choices - but they can also become quite different. Essentially they'd start out in two different places, and could grow towards each other or away. The mage core class simply summarizes the differences into a single class. I just don't see a need for that.

This is a good point - the methods I'm using would work perfectly with that approach, and simplify the class. There were niggling details, though, that I felt needed to be solved by making it a seperate class, for example class skills (why do sorcerers get Bluff anyways?) and cost to scribe scrolls. This sounds like a good approach.

I'm glad it sounds like a good approach. I'd just house rule on skills and scroll cost (what's wrong with scroll cost anyway, or is that a new thread?) and let these feats stand as metamagic feats. Incidentally, in my re-write, bards and rangers also get a hand out

This idea violates one of the principle axioms behind my initial design: At no point should a mage be able to know more spells that a sorcerer of the same level. (Similarily, no mage should be able to prepare more spells than a wizard of the same level, and no mage should be able to spontaneously cast more spells than a sorcer of the same level). You could take this feat multiple times and get access to higher level spells than a sorcerer of the same level could.

Actually not. The requirement for the feat is 3rd level arcane spellcasting. That's a level 5 character, minimum. If you took the feat, you'd have the spell casting capability of a sorc at level 2. A level 5 sorc would beat you. You might be able to outrun the sorc, but it would soak a lot of feats up to do it, and for what gain?? You cannot exceed the number of spells you can cast in a day, so with the right modifiers, that sorc will always be ahead of you.

I'll admit I wrangled with the wording on this and I'm still not happy with it enough to use yet. The idea was that a caster should be able to spontaneously cast the same number of spells as a sorc of two levels lower, but never exceed their own number of spells per day.

Does that still violate your concept?

I also don't understand where some of your numbers come from:
- You have to be a fifth level mage? Why fifth level?

Where'd you get fifth level mage from? I'm trying to do away with mage - now fifth level arcane caster (3rd level spells), that i can explain - if you are going to cast as though 2 levels lower, at first and second level, you have issues. I didn't care for a third or even fourth level wizard doing this either, so I upped it to 3rd level arcane (5th wizard). Why? Is it too high?

- You get to spells as a second level sorcerer. Why second level sorcerer at 5th level?

Again - no mage class to go with my feats. A wizard at 5th level who takes this should not be able to cast their highest level spells spontaneously - they just learned those in game terms.

- You can take it multiple times and it goes up by two levels? Why two levels?

Based off your own 'you can use two columns' wording...

- Why can't your character master spells at first level like a sorcerer?

If you want to spontaneously cast spells at first level, start with sorc. If you are a wizard and want to spontaneously cast spells at first, you can't - you're an apprentice, you're still learning about magic in general. It also preserves the distinction between sorc and wizard at first level - otherwise, I'd be looking at eliminating sorc/wizard and merging them into mage, which I don't want to do.

This doesn't seem balanced and doesn't correspond to a classic wizard or sorcerer at all - it seems contrived and complex.

Corresponding to the classic wizard or sorc isn't something either of us wants to do, from what I understand. However, using these feats as I portrayed them allows the classic sorc/wiz a great deal more flexibility in their characters growth into a powerful magic user. The sorc can learn to transcribe his spells into a book, and prepare them from there, which is certainly not an unreasonable thing if it does not allow him additional spells per day and he must burn a serious number of feats to do so. The wizard can eventually learn to start spontaneously casting spells he's gained familiarity enough with that he no longer needs his spellbook to prepare them, again not unreasonable with a significant feat expenditure. That's assuming both characters take the feats to bridge between the two classes. if the wizard wants to drift off into magic item creation and the sorc into metamagic effects, the two preserve their seperate identities. In no case will these feats allow the character to cast more spells per day than is allowed by his class...

However, the concept of using feats/class abilities and adding them to stock sorcerers or wizards makes a lot of sense. Basically, wizards start out with arcane preparation, arcane transcription, and scribe scroll. Sorcerers start out with spontaneous casting, spell mastery 0 & 1, and spell mastery 2 & 3 (using my initial version of spell mastery). From there they can gain additional feats in order to take on more abilities providing that they meet the prerequisites.

And that is what I'm aiming for. My players are getting punch-drunk by the number of new house rules being implemented into my game (moving 3.0 to 3.5), so I'd rather introduce a handful of feats than a whole new class. I'll admit my version of spell mastery needs work, especially in the verbiage, but I'm willing to discuss it in greater depth.

One last thing: I noticed that you removed the min Cha prerequisite from improved spontaneous casting. Probably a good idea since no-one would take this feat without a good Int and Cha anyway. Is this why it's been removed? If so, that makes sense to me.

Pretty close - if you read the through the chain of feats, you find that you need spell mastery first, which requires 3rd level arcane spell casting, which would mean an INT of at least 13, then you nead spontaneous casting, which requires a Cha of 10 + level of spell before use. Then comes improved spontaneous casting. Why repeat requirements previously met?

So I need to focus on spell mastery as a feat, because it appears to not communicate what I wanted it to.

However, I feel strongly that a whole new class is not necessary, because the feats alone can allow sorc's and wiz's all the capabilities you want them to have.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank you for these feats . It's a far cry better than my own attempt at a mage class, even if it loses me a few concepts I found intriguing (HP powered magic, etc)