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<blockquote data-quote="Li Shenron" data-source="post: 6639694" data-attributes="member: 1465"><p>Speaking from my armchair because I haven't seen the comparison in play...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I am sometimes worried whether the designers were really aware of that. Playtesters should have picked it up, but at least I didn't notice it immediately, that a 5e Wizard works like a 3e Sorcerer that can change his list of known spells each day, so the 5e Wizard is actually a lot better than a 3e Sorcerer, but how better is a 5e Sorcerer than a 3e Sorcerer? Other stuff in the classes have changed, so it's not easy to tell.</p><p></p><p>Certainly, Wizards have always been designed to know a lot more spells than Sorcerers. IIRC they go from 6 to 44 at the end of the game, while Sorcerers go from 2 to 15, so roughly a Wizard knows 3 times more spells than a Sorcerer as a basis (i.e. not counting copying spells from scrolls and spellbooks, which might be subject to DM's whims). Sorcerers know one more cantrip, not a huge difference.</p><p></p><p>On top of the common daily slots chart, Wizard have some extra casting from Arcane Recovery (one of your highest-level slots, or more than one lower-level), Rituals, and Spell Mastery (but this is so high level that I wouldn't use it in the comparison). The question is: how many highest-level slots can a Sorcerer typically create with Spell Points? It'd better be more than one, otherwise the only advantage is being able to do it on the fly while the Wizard needs a short rest to recover the slots.</p><p></p><p>Rituals are hard to judge... technically they could be seen as worth infinite slots, but the practical limitations are "not in combat" and the number of available rituals in the game, which IMHO tends to be overestimated.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well clearly your situation is not good as a benchmark for comparing Wizards to Sorcerers <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> We need to see how the work besides each other.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>What I still don't know is how many more spells per day... I want to see that really the Sorcerer has more firepower than the Wizard if she wants, because I am not at all convinced that Metamagic has the same weight as 3 times more known spells. The Sorcerer will also always have the edge on doing a lot more things on the fly for sure, while the Wizard needs more time (time to cast a Ritual, short rest for Arcane recovery, long rest to switch spells).</p><p></p><p>It's really a tricky comparison overall, when there are many things on both classes that affect the amount of casting. Perhaps we could write down the extreme cases such as when a Sorcerer uses all points to create highest-level slots, when it uses all to create lowest-level slots etc...</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Li Shenron, post: 6639694, member: 1465"] Speaking from my armchair because I haven't seen the comparison in play... I am sometimes worried whether the designers were really aware of that. Playtesters should have picked it up, but at least I didn't notice it immediately, that a 5e Wizard works like a 3e Sorcerer that can change his list of known spells each day, so the 5e Wizard is actually a lot better than a 3e Sorcerer, but how better is a 5e Sorcerer than a 3e Sorcerer? Other stuff in the classes have changed, so it's not easy to tell. Certainly, Wizards have always been designed to know a lot more spells than Sorcerers. IIRC they go from 6 to 44 at the end of the game, while Sorcerers go from 2 to 15, so roughly a Wizard knows 3 times more spells than a Sorcerer as a basis (i.e. not counting copying spells from scrolls and spellbooks, which might be subject to DM's whims). Sorcerers know one more cantrip, not a huge difference. On top of the common daily slots chart, Wizard have some extra casting from Arcane Recovery (one of your highest-level slots, or more than one lower-level), Rituals, and Spell Mastery (but this is so high level that I wouldn't use it in the comparison). The question is: how many highest-level slots can a Sorcerer typically create with Spell Points? It'd better be more than one, otherwise the only advantage is being able to do it on the fly while the Wizard needs a short rest to recover the slots. Rituals are hard to judge... technically they could be seen as worth infinite slots, but the practical limitations are "not in combat" and the number of available rituals in the game, which IMHO tends to be overestimated. Well clearly your situation is not good as a benchmark for comparing Wizards to Sorcerers :) We need to see how the work besides each other. What I still don't know is how many more spells per day... I want to see that really the Sorcerer has more firepower than the Wizard if she wants, because I am not at all convinced that Metamagic has the same weight as 3 times more known spells. The Sorcerer will also always have the edge on doing a lot more things on the fly for sure, while the Wizard needs more time (time to cast a Ritual, short rest for Arcane recovery, long rest to switch spells). It's really a tricky comparison overall, when there are many things on both classes that affect the amount of casting. Perhaps we could write down the extreme cases such as when a Sorcerer uses all points to create highest-level slots, when it uses all to create lowest-level slots etc... [/QUOTE]
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