D&D 5E Sorcerers and Versatility

Shadowdweller00

Adventurer
In a certain other recent thread it seems like I've been seeing hordes of armchair theoreticians who have been making assorted claims about the sorcerer despite obviously having comparatively little play experience. Now - I like the class, and I'm not personally certain that the errata is all that damaging or at least the errata is in keeping with my personal previous reading of the Twinned spell metamagic ability; but the fact of the matter is that the sorcerer does indeed have issues with versatility. And complaints about it are absolutely on target. Just to maybe clarify a few things:

* The sorcerer has fewer spells known than any other primary caster (other than the warlock...who IMO doesn't really count because of their weird casting mechanic...their at-will invocation abilities...and because the warlock can deal middling martial-level damage with a cantrip).

* The sorcerer knows fewer spells than any other primary caster class that prepares spells can even prepare at one time.

* Unlike casters that prepare spells, the sorcerer is stuck with the same basic known spells day after day until they gain a new level...and so cannot even adapt that very limited list to a particular challenge or situation.

* The sorcerer is the ONLY primary caster who does not have the Ritual Caster ability. (Although again this requires an invocation and a pact choice for the warlock).

* The sorcerer's metamagic abilities compete with the same resource (i.e. sorcery points) as spell slots. So in combination with the lack of Ritual Casting...the class often effectively has fewer spell slots. (But can nova a little better).

On top of the above limitations, the sorcerer's closest homologue - the wizard - holds a greatly expanded spell list. These limitations become distinctly obvious as class levels rise. THEORETICALLY, the sorcerer's metamagic abilities make up for this. But their metamagic picks are quite limited....so when one of them turns out to be ineffective or circumstantial...it hurts significantly.
 
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S_Dalsgaard

First Post
I can only speak from my own experience, but at our table we have had three sorcerers (two dragon, one wild) so far and no wizards, so we are fine with how it is and it seems well-liked, despite (or maybe because of) the things you mention.
 

Shadowdweller00

Adventurer
I can only speak from my own experience, but at our table we have had three sorcerers (two dragon, one wild) so far and no wizards, so we are fine with how it is and it seems well-liked, despite (or maybe because of) the things you mention.
I certainly would not contend that the class cannot contribute to a party. I don't think balance is much of an issue to many people. I personally find that balance problems most frequently arise or become an issue when you have a situation where there are two similar characters - say a barbarian and a fighter, a sorcerer and wizard, or two individuals of the same class - and one of the two ends up consistently upstaging the other. Although I would also like to play a game with meaningful character options that are not inherently superior or inferior to each other.
 
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S_Dalsgaard

First Post
I certainly would not contend that the class cannot contribute to a party. I don't think balance is much of an issue to many people. I personally find that balance problems most frequently arise or become an issue when you have a situation where there are two similar characters - say a barbarian and a fighter, a sorcerer and wizard, or two individuals of the same class - and one of the two ends up consistently upstaging the other.

That is a fair point. We haven't had that many casters in our parties yet, so we haven't really seen arcane spellcasters in direct "competition".
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
One problem nobody talks about, but that is huge is the errata on the blast bonus. Adding cha to damage is huge, or should be. It is worth ten spells known, but knowing it no longer applies to things like witch bolt or only one ray of scorching ray makes it weaker. I mean I don't like to blast and in a way I don't really care, but I love the favoured soul and I like to think it is in line with the rest of the classes and the dragon sorc. And well, the blast bonus from dragon soul has to carry that weight, and I thought it did. But if it is weaker and blaster sorc players are complaining, then maybe it is time to admit the phb sorcerer is weak. ( yes, twin spell is kind of a loss, but when I mentioned worries about the sorcerer everybody went TWIN SPELL, TWIN SPELL! to shut down the conversation. So I don't think it is a big loss)

Something to understand, sorcerers aren't wizards, sorcerers are specialists, you pick a niche and run with it, if your niche is blasting, and you have to spend lots of resources just to do less damage than a barbarian can do at will, then you aren't very good at your niche, and you don't have a lot left to do anything else. The sorcerer class is more versatile than the barbarian class, but each individual sorcerer is too much of a one trick pony and not that versatile. That is the problem of having to share spells with niche invaders -wizards- you don't have enough to fill a niche and not have your party regret they didn't bring a better niche filler or a wizard that at least can do more things.
 

MonkeezOnFire

Adventurer
* The sorcerer's metamagic abilities compete with the same resource (i.e. sorcery points) as spell slots. So in combination with the lack of Ritual Casting...the class often effectively has fewer spell slots. (But can nova a little better).

I'm a little confused by this point. Sorcerers by default have the same spell slot progression as other primary casters. And with the ability to turn spell points into additional slots that means the sorcerer can effectively have more slots than the other primary casters, not less. This is even how the sorcerer was explained to me in 3.5 edition: you know less spells than the wizard, but you can cast spells more often. So to me, having low versatility is part of the identity of the sorcerer.

From this interpretation, it makes sense that you know less spells than others can prepare. Because sorcerers are spontaneous casters if the spells they knew exceeded spells prepared of the wizard, the sorcerer would have more spells available to them during the day. The sorcerer would have more options than the wizard and that just isn't supposed to happen.

I'm sorry that this is still all armchair analysis, I've never seen a sorcerer play in 5e. FWIW, I agree that the sorcerer reads like a weak option. Metamagic and extra slots sharing the same resources puts heavy cost on either option. The subclasses seem to barely aid your actual spellcasting in favor of other features. Very few spells exclusive to the spell list, and much more sparse than the wizard's. I think the sorcerer needs a little help, I just don't think that adding versatility is the correct choice. Because that would push the class even closer to what the wizard is.
 

famousringo

First Post
I'm a little confused by this point. Sorcerers by default have the same spell slot progression as other primary casters. And with the ability to turn spell points into additional slots that means the sorcerer can effectively have more slots than the other primary casters, not less. This is even how the sorcerer was explained to me in 3.5 edition: you know less spells than the wizard, but you can cast spells more often. So to me, having low versatility is part of the identity of the sorcerer.

From this interpretation, it makes sense that you know less spells than others can prepare. Because sorcerers are spontaneous casters if the spells they knew exceeded spells prepared of the wizard, the sorcerer would have more spells available to them during the day. The sorcerer would have more options than the wizard and that just isn't supposed to happen.

I'm sorry that this is still all armchair analysis, I've never seen a sorcerer play in 5e. FWIW, I agree that the sorcerer reads like a weak option. Metamagic and extra slots sharing the same resources puts heavy cost on either option. The subclasses seem to barely aid your actual spellcasting in favor of other features. Very few spells exclusive to the spell list, and much more sparse than the wizard's. I think the sorcerer needs a little help, I just don't think that adding versatility is the correct choice. Because that would push the class even closer to what the wizard is.

Sticking with the wizard comparison, sorcery points turned into spell slots tracks very closely to a wizard's Arcane Recovery, the difference is that a sorcerer has to turn off his core class feature in order to get those slots. Any use of metamagic means effectively fewer spell slots than a wizard (arguably, this can still be a good bargain if the spell lands more often due to Heighten or hit more targets due to Twin).

Compounding the issue is ritual magic. A wizard with spare time can freely cast any ritual spell she knows without spending a slot or even preparing the spell ahead of time, effectively further increasing the wizard's lead in spell slots and spells known.

All that combined with the much larger spell list and spells known per day, and the versatility gulf is huge. Few people feel the power of metamagic is worth the tradeoff.

You position that sorcerer should be more differentiated from wizard rather than closing the versatility gap makes good sense to me, but judging by Unearthed Arcana, it seems the designers would rather give the sorcerer more versatility than more power.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
The thing about sorcerers is that the lack of versatility is their thing. Sorcerers are supposed to be one trick ponies. Winning the versatility races is impossible. Sorcerers do focusing well.

The other casters fight to get a triple double. Sorcerers ball-hog, chuck the ball, and drop 30-40 points.
 

Ashrym

Legend
In a certain other recent thread it seems like I've been seeing hordes of armchair theoreticians who have been making assorted claims about the sorcerer despite obviously having comparatively little play experience. Now - I like the class, and I'm not personally certain that the errata is all that damaging or at least the errata is in keeping with my personal previous reading of the Twinned spell metamagic ability; but the fact of the matter is that the sorcerer does indeed have issues with versatility. And complaints about it are absolutely on target.

Rather presumptive and carries an aggressive tone. It's entirely possible your experience might be lacking and you don't realize it. ;-)


Just to maybe clarify a few things:

* The sorcerer has fewer spells known than any other primary caster (other than the warlock...who IMO doesn't really count because of their weird casting mechanic...their at-will invocation abilities...and because the warlock can deal middling martial-level damage with a cantrip).

The sorcerer has less than warlocks too. Warlock spells known are only for spells up the 5th level and the arcanum plus invocations being them up to bard levels of spells known.

It's not that bad, however. The extra 2 cantrips sorcerers have over bards and warlocks makes a difference at low levels and simply use skills like a fighter would. Bards and warlocks know very few spells at those levels as well because the gain takes place over time, and by the time that happens a sorcerer has had opportunities to intersperse some versatility amid different spell levels. Sorcerers also have spells from which to select not available to any other arcane spell caster except high level bards with secrets. Secrets don't cover metamagic or font of magic.

* The sorcerer knows fewer spells than any other primary caster class that prepares spells can even prepare at one time.

Definitely. It's a feature of those classes. The sorcerer's draw is metamagic. Combining the large selection of preparation with peak moment power of metamagic becomes extremely powerful. That's WAI.

* Unlike casters that prepare spells, the sorcerer is stuck with the same basic known spells day after day until they gain a new level...and so cannot even adapt that very limited list to a particular challenge or situation.

Also WAI and true, but with additional comments.

Sorcerers adapt in different ways. The need to rely more on a mundane approach to some issues like a fighter might so a sorcerer on a mount might be use for speed and mobility or the sorcerer might rely on high CHA and proficiency instead of charm person.

The extra cantrip over a wizard, or 2 over a bard or warlock, gives an additional utility option or a different combat option when cantrips are the main source of combat spells for those spellcasters. Sorcerers also have a few options for specifically versatile spells like enhance ability in alter self from low levels; it only takes a few combat spells for combat so there is room for more.

Font of magic and metamagic create some versatility by making the same spells more useful by combining a few options with another few options, and alternatively, the choice to simply have more available spell slots than any other spellcaster creates options where others are out of options. A wizard who already cast his 3rd level slots or a sorcerer who already used his pact magic slots doesn't have the same opportunities as a sorcerer who can create another slot as a bonus action.

The resources require more management than prepared spells but still work.

* The sorcerer is the ONLY primary caster who does not have the Ritual Caster ability. (Although again this requires an invocation and a pact choice for the warlock).

This is intentional. Developers replied to questioning on it that it's a distinction between training and raw talent. Ritual casting isn't all it's cracked up to be because it requires preparing or acquiring the rituals anyway, and most ritual spells are of limited effect. They always break concentration. They are slow to acquire.

In the sorcerer's case, the limited spell selection would preclude many rituals anyway so it's more flavor when a sorcerer who does need another detect magic spell might simply cast it again or create a slot if needed to cast it again. Anyone who really worries about it just takes a feat so it's not a huge deal; nice to have in some cases but not a real issue.

* The sorcerer's metamagic abilities compete with the same resource (i.e. sorcery points) as spell slots. So in combination with the lack of Ritual Casting...the class often effectively has fewer spell slots. (But can nova a little better).

I don't find rituals come up often enough for that impact. Font of magic really does give more spell slots than arcane renewal and still have points for a metamagic or two. Total number of spells per day by trading in a higher level spell for lower level slots turns 1 spell into 2 on top of that when many low level spells are relevant and good at higher levels.

Usually I find every other caster is out of spell slots first unless the sorcerer is making an active choice to use a lot of metamagic. In such a case he still uses cantrips and skills. Every spellcaster runs into using cantrips and the sorcerer does have more of those.

On top of the above limitations, the sorcerer's closest homologue - the wizard - holds a greatly expanded spell list. These limitations become distinctly obvious as class levels rise. THEORETICALLY, the sorcerer's metamagic abilities make up for this. But their metamagic picks are quite limited....so when one of them turns out to be ineffective or circumstantial...it hurts significantly.

Don't make circumstantial or ineffective choices. Metamagic only requires 1 selection to match the spell selection. Choosing single target spells for twinning, quicken for bonus action extra damage, heighten for saves, or empower for higher damage on multiple dice roll spells just makes common sense.

Metamagic is more peak moment potential and it does that job extremely well. The real question would be why a person who wants to cast rituals and know a lot of spells would choose a sorcerer over a land druid, lore bard, tome warlock, or any wizard tradition in the first place because they all provide different flavors of those traits.

I find sorcerers less forgiving for mistakes in the build design process but not an inferior choice. The standard spells known of (6)/3/2/2/2/2/1/1/1/1 just isn't far off from a warlock's (4)/3/2/2/2/2/1/1/1/1 plus 4 of 5th level or lower or a bard's (4)/5/2/2/2/1/1/1/1/1 with 2 more below 5th, 7th, and 9th each. Dividing those few spells among that many spell levels over the course of 18 character levels is low impact compared to metamagic and font of magic. They all have those opportunity costs selecting spells.

I agree other major spell casters have advantages in spell selection and versatility. I disagree that this should be cause for concern because metamagic and font of magic are excellent abilities taken in the trade-offs.

The only thing that I don't like is the subclass flavors. The mechanics are fine.
 

jgsugden

Legend
The point of the sorcerer is that they are more flexible (metamagic) and more rigid (smaller spell selection) at the same time. In many ways, warlock, sorcerer and wizard are a progression from most rigid to most open. However, it is not a perfect progression.

The good news is that at higher levels, when you have more than 10 spells - you're going to have room for a wider selection. And if you really need the wider selection, Favored Soul and Tempest Sorcerers are a bit broader and one level of wizard, cleric or druid can give you a lot more spell options.
 

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