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D&D 5E Sorcerers and Versatility

Tony Vargas

Legend
Maybe this isn't helpful, but the OP's list of 'problems' the Sorcerer has do sound a bit like complaints lodged against it in 3.x - even though it's completely different, mechanically (as it had to be, since everyone casts spontaneously in 5e). That's actually quite an accomplishment. The 3.x Sorcerer's schtick was given away to everyone (who casts spells), and in spite of that, 5e still captured the original 'feel' of the class.
 

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DaveDash

Explorer
Rather presumptive and carries an aggressive tone. It's entirely possible your experience might be lacking and you don't realize it. ;-)




The sorcerer has less than warlocks too. Warlock spells known are only for spells up the 5th level and the arcanum plus invocations being them up to bard levels of spells known.

It's not that bad, however. The extra 2 cantrips sorcerers have over bards and warlocks makes a difference at low levels and simply use skills like a fighter would. Bards and warlocks know very few spells at those levels as well because the gain takes place over time, and by the time that happens a sorcerer has had opportunities to intersperse some versatility amid different spell levels. Sorcerers also have spells from which to select not available to any other arcane spell caster except high level bards with secrets. Secrets don't cover metamagic or font of magic.



Definitely. It's a feature of those classes. The sorcerer's draw is metamagic. Combining the large selection of preparation with peak moment power of metamagic becomes extremely powerful. That's WAI.



Also WAI and true, but with additional comments.

Sorcerers adapt in different ways. The need to rely more on a mundane approach to some issues like a fighter might so a sorcerer on a mount might be use for speed and mobility or the sorcerer might rely on high CHA and proficiency instead of charm person.

The extra cantrip over a wizard, or 2 over a bard or warlock, gives an additional utility option or a different combat option when cantrips are the main source of combat spells for those spellcasters. Sorcerers also have a few options for specifically versatile spells like enhance ability in alter self from low levels; it only takes a few combat spells for combat so there is room for more.

Font of magic and metamagic create some versatility by making the same spells more useful by combining a few options with another few options, and alternatively, the choice to simply have more available spell slots than any other spellcaster creates options where others are out of options. A wizard who already cast his 3rd level slots or a sorcerer who already used his pact magic slots doesn't have the same opportunities as a sorcerer who can create another slot as a bonus action.

The resources require more management than prepared spells but still work.



This is intentional. Developers replied to questioning on it that it's a distinction between training and raw talent. Ritual casting isn't all it's cracked up to be because it requires preparing or acquiring the rituals anyway, and most ritual spells are of limited effect. They always break concentration. They are slow to acquire.

In the sorcerer's case, the limited spell selection would preclude many rituals anyway so it's more flavor when a sorcerer who does need another detect magic spell might simply cast it again or create a slot if needed to cast it again. Anyone who really worries about it just takes a feat so it's not a huge deal; nice to have in some cases but not a real issue.



I don't find rituals come up often enough for that impact. Font of magic really does give more spell slots than arcane renewal and still have points for a metamagic or two. Total number of spells per day by trading in a higher level spell for lower level slots turns 1 spell into 2 on top of that when many low level spells are relevant and good at higher levels.

Usually I find every other caster is out of spell slots first unless the sorcerer is making an active choice to use a lot of metamagic. In such a case he still uses cantrips and skills. Every spellcaster runs into using cantrips and the sorcerer does have more of those.



Don't make circumstantial or ineffective choices. Metamagic only requires 1 selection to match the spell selection. Choosing single target spells for twinning, quicken for bonus action extra damage, heighten for saves, or empower for higher damage on multiple dice roll spells just makes common sense.

Metamagic is more peak moment potential and it does that job extremely well. The real question would be why a person who wants to cast rituals and know a lot of spells would choose a sorcerer over a land druid, lore bard, tome warlock, or any wizard tradition in the first place because they all provide different flavors of those traits.

I find sorcerers less forgiving for mistakes in the build design process but not an inferior choice. The standard spells known of (6)/3/2/2/2/2/1/1/1/1 just isn't far off from a warlock's (4)/3/2/2/2/2/1/1/1/1 plus 4 of 5th level or lower or a bard's (4)/5/2/2/2/1/1/1/1/1 with 2 more below 5th, 7th, and 9th each. Dividing those few spells among that many spell levels over the course of 18 character levels is low impact compared to metamagic and font of magic. They all have those opportunity costs selecting spells.

I agree other major spell casters have advantages in spell selection and versatility. I disagree that this should be cause for concern because metamagic and font of magic are excellent abilities taken in the trade-offs.

The only thing that I don't like is the subclass flavors. The mechanics are fine.

Nothing in this post matches up with my game experience with both Sorcerers and Wizards.

Firstly ritual casting is amazing - there have been so many times on adventures, all the way up to level 16 now, where ritual casting has been fantastic.

Secondly the limited spell selection of the Sorcerer is a huge weakness since its damage, especially now, is nothing to write home about. They hit a power band from around level 5 but start to peter out later on. They can't compete at all with archery style fighters, and playing them as a damage dealing class is a trap.

The OPs comments are spot on and strike me as someone who has actually experienced both Sorcerers and Wizards together at lower and higher levels at least.

About the only thing that's ever made me think "Ah it's good we had a Sorcerer!" has been things like twinned haste. All their other functions are done better by other classes, there's been many times where having a Wizard would have been MUCH better for us as a group.
 

vandaexpress

First Post
Yeah. I've been monitoring the sorc in the group I DM for a while and comparing it to wizards. I think when push comes to shove, if I'm in a massive combat, I'd rather have a dragon sorcerer watching my back than any wizard except maybe a well-played abjurer. The built in, non-dispellable AC boost, extra HP, and ability to create spell slots in the middle of combat, as-needed, or enhance with metamagic is hard to overlook. They're tougher to put down and they have a lot of "in-the-moment" flexibility when you need it the most: combat. Then they have on-demand flight later on without having to maintain conc, gives them a major edge with mobility to position themselves on the battlefield, avoid harm, and move around quickly.

They don't have as much out of combat utility through spells, but in my experience, a high charisma is extremely useful in other pillars of the game, and can often be used as a proxy for a higher int score by persuading others to do/research things for you.

Rituals are nice, but not a must-have. I don't know. I see a lot of hate for dragon sorcerers on these boards, but they seem perfectly fine to me for what they are: flexible artillery pieces built for combat. They even have proficiency in Constitution saves to help them keep their conc spells going under fire.

I don't know, man. The more I play the game, the more I think dragon sorcerers are extremely undervalued in most discussions online. They are excellent at maintaining more buffs, holding concentration, take more hits before going down, and can nova frighteningly well when needed. Not to mention they're the only casting class I'm aware of that has a very simple and low-cost tool for getting around an enemy counterspeller - shocking grasp followed by a quickened spell - if the enemy counters the cantrip, they can't counter the other spell, if they don't counter the cantrip and get hit, they lose their reaction and can't counter the spell.

Not planning on making any changes in my game for now. Wizards are more versatile outside of combat, Sorcerers are more versatile inside of combat, but in a different way, especially when you account for the fact that they get their slots back with bonus actions instead of short (edit: typo) rests.

I will second what others have said about the Sorcerer being less forgiving of mistakes in the build, however. That being said, they aren't nearly as DM-dependent for consistently producing damage, since they function equally well regardless of the number of short rests or spell scrolls found.
 
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DaveDash

Explorer
Sorcerers are not very versatile in combat when they don't have the right spells for that fight, which happens a lot later on.

I felt very frustrated playing a Sorcerer from level 11-17 compared to the Wizard because your options available to you are poor.
 

vandaexpress

First Post
Sorcerers are not very versatile in combat when they don't have the right spells for that fight, which happens a lot later on.

I felt very frustrated playing a Sorcerer from level 11-17 compared to the Wizard because your options available to you are poor.

I'm not challenging this statement, but I am curious as to what spells you wish you had at those levels? Just out of curiosity. My party is only level 8, so you could be completely correct, we haven't gotten there yet.
 

DaveDash

Explorer
I'm not challenging this statement, but I am curious as to what spells you wish you had at those levels? Just out of curiosity. My party is only level 8, so you could be completely correct, we haven't gotten there yet.

I can't remember specifically which spells I really missed, just the general feeling of being hopeless. Especially when fighting monsters that did a lot of bad riders and not really having any means to deal with the situation other than damage. Like you said I've also seen a well played Abjurer and the difference has been striking.

Then when you finally get 9th level spells it's hugely anti-climatic (a bit like the Cleric). However this arguably won't be a big issue for many players.

Being able to fly was cool but useless in dungeons. I'd much rather some of the Wizard subclass options (especially Abjurer) to be honest. The spell slot advantage you have over the Wizard also disappears later on in the game dur to arcane recovery and the fact you don't really run low on spells at higher levels (not unless you're REALLY pressed, then yes a Sorcerer is nice to have).

Sorcerer is much better with the Elemental Evil players guide, and I like some of the stuff coming out of UA.
 
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77IM

Explorer!!!
Supporter
I love that they are giving sorcerers themed spell lists now. I think that's how it should have been since the beginning. I'd go so far as to say the core sorcerer spell list should be even smaller, and they should get even more spells from their theme list (up to 9th level spells). So if you want to play an "ice sorcerer" for example ("Let it go, let it go..."), you just pick that themed spell list and bam, you've got all the best ice and cold spells already.
 

Ashrym

Legend
I'm not challenging this statement, but I am curious as to what spells you wish you had at those levels? Just out of curiosity. My party is only level 8, so you could be completely correct, we haven't gotten there yet.

Don't stress it too much. A wizard's spellbook does end up with at least 3 times as many spells as a sorcerer knows but only about 4 spells at each of the higher levels plus what can be found. High level spell scrolls aren't exactly common.

Preparing 10 more spells among 9 spell levels can be nice but it's not like it creates some kind of "I win" option at about 1 more spell at each spell level that wouldn't have already been available to the sorcerer.

Wizards are generally preparing 1 or 2 spells at any given level more than sorcerers so still have a limited selection restricted by spell slots. It's definitely better but how much better is overstated on the forums regularly because people are comparing 10 spells spread over 9 spell levels acquired over 20 character levels and not considering how spread out that actually is.

5e restricts high level spells regardless of class.

It does allow for prepared spells to be concentrated on high level spells to open up choices, but in doing so there are less options left to prepare in lower slots, and casting that one slot invalidates every other prepared spell of the same level that can no longer be cast so a person needs to be careful not to actually reduce flexibility by preparing too many high level spells.

Sorcerers have a really strong set of mechanics and the restrictions are less restricting than a person might think.
 

Eric V

Hero
The thing about sorcerers is that the lack of versatility is their thing. Sorcerers are supposed to be one trick ponies. Winning the versatility races is impossible. Sorcerers do focusing well.

The other casters fight to get a triple double. Sorcerers ball-hog, chuck the ball, and drop 30-40 points.

The errata just made sure that Joey Crawford is referring all their games, though. :/
 

I have been tempted to add a new Metamagic option. Maybe "Wizardly Spell": You can read and scribe spells, have a spellbook that can contain any spells that you find or transcribe from another spellbook from the Wizard's spell list. You can memorize that spell for the day if it is a level that you can cast by spending that many sorcery points to add it to your known spells. You can not apply further metamagic options to spells added this way. You can only maintain one extra spell at a time. You lose the spell from your memory after a long rest.

Or maybe this should be a feat or a subclass. Does this answer versatility complaints while allowing for some niche protection for the Wizard? Or am I totally barking up the wrong tree?
 

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