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D&D 5E Sorcerers and Versatility

CapnZapp

Legend
The sorcerer is weak at filling the "arcane caster" slot of a party.

As a fifth character (together with a wizard or even bard) the sorcerer does fine.

It's a little bland, but that's the price you pay for Fireballs.

Just don't expect it to carry the main "arcane caster" workload and it's fine.
 

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CapnZapp

Legend
The only thing that I don't like is the subclass flavors. The mechanics are fine.
Agreed.

Don't blame the core class for its lack of interesting subclasses.

Draconic is fine, but it's all too alone, at least until playtest subclasses such as Storm or Favored Soul sees full print support.

Wild Mage needs help to work in practical play.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I think many are looking at this wrong. The way to compare classes is to describe a class's worst case scenario and dump other classes in it.

Wizard WCS
: The wizard doesn't have a spell prepared with a desired effect at a high enough spell slot.

Wizard Solution: If you have the effect in a lower level spell, you can bump it up inefficiently to a high level level. Or else you have nothing.

Put a Sorcerer in its place: If the wizard didn't have it , the sorcerer probably doesn't either. But if the sorcerer has to bump it up, they have metamagic to negate the inefficiency. A 3rd level burning hands is better when empowered or distanced.


Sorcerer WCS: The sorcerer doesn't have a spell known with a desired effect due to its smaller spell list or spell known.

Sorcerer: You got nothing if you can't bludgeon the problem with spells (an exploded door is an opened door). But who is the fool, the sorcerer for no having knock or the people expecting her to?

Put a Wizard in its place: The wizard can have more spells prepared and use rituals if time permits.

That's that difference.
The wizard's party is relying on the wizard to always guess right and manage resources well. The sorcerer's party doesn't but the sorcerer's scope is smaller.
 

That's true I imagine. In the same vein that a druid who doesn't cast any spells doesn't benefit from that class feature. Nor does a monk who refuses to use their ki. It's not exactly a compelling argument for the essential meaninglessness of those class features however...
A wizard gets two spells every level compared to the sorcerer's one. However, they can only prepare one additional spell each level, so they're getting one spell they can cast and one spell that will sit in their spellbooks. Each wizard has a theme as well, so the spells will typically focus around that theme and work with the wizard, so they're unlikely to be swapped out save in special situations.

An evoker who reaches 5th level will pick the obvious blasty 3rd-level spells at that level but if they memorize both it comes at the cost of an earlier spell. And at 6th level they gain two more spells but are likely to memorize their choice of go-to spell chosen at the prior level. So the two new spells are largely superfluous. Situational. If the situation comes up, excellent. If the situation just never comes up... then they're not functionally different from the sorcerer.
And there's always the possibility of choosing wrong.

Plus, a sorcerer can change out low level spells. So, at higher levels, they can swap a low level spell that is no longer useful for one that has greater utility. The wizard can't unlearn a spell, and can only learn a new low level spell at the cost of a higher level spell.

I don't generally go about auditing the spell lists of my fellow players too closely....even when I'm DM. But I change my prepared spells around all the time while playing prepared casters. Mostly simple and logical stuff - swap in a few party buffs and non-saveables if I think I'm going to be facing something with legendary and/or spell resistance. Trade my fireball spell out for something else if I'm hunting fire demons. Put in counterspell or silence for a spellcasting foe. Maybe false life for something I think might otherwise one-shot the character. There are a lot of spells that are situationally powerful or necessary but otherwise not something one would want to waste spell picks on.
You might swap a few spells out, but you don't pick completely different spells every time. A wizard could have two alternate spell lists, changing all their spells any given day. But that almost never happens.

Also, not every player WANTS to manage an ever changing spell list. That's extra bookkeeping and a massive hassle. The sorcerer is a lovely compromise between other spellcasters and simpler non-casters.
It sounds like you make the most of prepared casters. That's cool. Maybe the sorcerer isn't for you then.

Uhh...no. Ritual spells are unusable if not prepared. What they do is save spell slots - so it doesn't actually reduce combat readiness to check whether any of that random junk is actually a valuable magic item or to translate that weird text you've found. Some of them are quite useful but not otherwise worth a spell slot. Try summoning an Unseen Servant to haul around a simple sheet for portable cover next time you get a chance in game.
Check again. The full text of Ritual Casting from the basic rules:
You can cast a wizard spell as a ritual if that spell has the ritual tag and you have the spell in your spellbook. You don’t need to have the spell prepared.​
So the sorcerer would gain little benefit from this feature, since they always have the spells prepared. The wizard gains more as they seldom need to even memorize ritual spells.

However, there's a rule that says you cannot cast ritual spells without this feature in the magic section. But I wonder if that was an oversight as they forgot the sorcerer didn't have ritual casting. That said, how many ritual spells do the sorcerer have access to?

What I still don't know is how many more spells per day... I want to see that really the Sorcerer has more firepower than the Wizard if she wants, because I am not at all convinced that Metamagic has the same weight as 3 times more known spells. The Sorcerer will also always have the edge on doing a lot more things on the fly for sure, while the Wizard needs more time (time to cast a Ritual, short rest for Arcane recovery, long rest to switch spells).

It's really a tricky comparison overall, when there are many things on both classes that affect the amount of casting. Perhaps we could write down the extreme cases such as when a Sorcerer uses all points to create highest-level slots, when it uses all to create lowest-level slots etc...
The wizard has 3x as many spells in their book but only has 2-3 more spells "known" each day (which eventually becomes 3-4 after Int bumps); the sorcerer effectively has 1+level, while the wizard has level+Int. Until 14th level, on a given day the sorcerer and wizard "know" almost the same amount of spells.

How many more spells a sorcerer knows is fluid, but it's very reactive since they can swap out sorcerer points on the fly when they need a particular spell or effect. It's really comparable to Arcane Recovery since both classes can gain an extra spell of their highest level each day. Only the sorcerer doesn't need a long rest and can choose over the day. And they can choose to make their existing spells better. And the wizard rounds down on spells regained, while the sorcerer effectively rounds up.
 

Shadowdweller00

Adventurer
Check again. The full text of Ritual Casting from the basic rules:
You can cast a wizard spell as a ritual if that spell has the ritual tag and you have the spell in your spellbook. You don’t need to have the spell prepared.​
So the sorcerer would gain little benefit from this feature, since they always have the spells prepared. The wizard gains more as they seldom need to even memorize ritual spells.
Interesting. I suppose I must have presumed that Ritual Casting worked the same for the Wizard as it does for the Druid/Cleric. I even referenced the passage a couple days ago.

PHB said:
The caster must also have the spell prepared or on his or her list of spells known, unless the caster's ritual feature specifies otherwise, as the wizard's does.
Must have stopped reading after the first clause. Eh, this serves only to exacerbate the spell disparity.

Anyway, OF COURSE there's the opportunity to choose wrong. But that's precisely why the extra spell picks (i.e. prepared or known spells) are a big deal. They allow the Wizard to cover more bases. Those circumstantial obstacle-enders have less of an opportunity cost when you have more picks to work with. And even less when you can swap them out once you feel that a reasonable risk of facing the obstacle in question has vanished....which occurs far more frequently than new levels.
 
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Anyway, OF COURSE there's the opportunity to choose wrong. But that's precisely why the extra spell picks (i.e. prepared or known spells) are a big deal. They allow the Wizard to cover more bases. Those circumstantial obstacle-enders have less of an opportunity cost when you have more picks to work with.
Sorcerers are likely to pick spells with the most reliable usage. The spells they will use 90% of the time. So they're unlikely to "pick wrong" but instead have unsuitable situational spells for particular adventures.
A wizard, because they can pick new spells, can render themselves ineffective in different ways, as they swap out a useful spell for a less useful one. This hurts more as they choose poorly that long rest and know the appropriate spell, they just don't have it prepared. It's right there and they didn't take it.
And if a wizard makes a poor choice of spell for a level they're stuck with that forever. The sorcerer is stuck with it for a level.

As for prepared spells, an 8th level wizard likely has 13 spells prepared each day (5 Int + 8th level). The sorcerer has 9. The wizard has all of 4 more spells prepared. That isn't a huge amount (and at lower levels the disparity is even smaller). It's going to have only a minor effect on potency and usefulness as the spells per day are the same.
 

Shadowdweller00

Adventurer
As for prepared spells, an 8th level wizard likely has 13 spells prepared each day (5 Int + 8th level). The sorcerer has 9. The wizard has all of 4 more spells prepared. That isn't a huge amount (and at lower levels the disparity is even smaller). It's going to have only a minor effect on potency and usefulness as the spells per day are the same.
That is a 44% better chance of getting it right, guy. That IS actually a huge amount in practice. And the difference is more variable at low levels than you claim. The increase is fully 100% at 1st level (with +3 Int). At 4th level (with +4 Int) it's 60%.

The wizard is no more likely nor obligated to pick unreliable spells than the sorcerer is. The fact of the matter is that NO spell is ideal for ALL circumstances. Fireball might reliably deal damage...but you WILL eventually encounter foes that are immune or resistant to fire. And the spell is most efficient when dealing with multiple enemies at once. Even choosing the most reliable spells a character of a spellcasting class is STILL prone to finding themselves in situations where their spells are ineffective.
 
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Parmandur

Book-Friend
That is a 44% better chance of getting it right, guy. That IS actually a huge amount in practice. And the difference is more variable at low levels than you claim. The increase is fully 100% at 1st level (with +3 Int). At 4th level (with +4 Int) it's 60%.

The wizard is no more likely nor obligated to pick unreliable spells than the sorcerer is. The fact of the matter is that NO spell is ideal for ALL circumstances. Fireball might reliably deal damage...but you WILL eventually encounter foes that are immune or resistant to fire. And the spell is most efficient when dealing with multiple enemies at once. Even choosing the most reliable spells a character of a spellcasting class is STILL prone to finding themselves in situations where their spells are ineffective.


A point about the resistances: the Sorcerer, due to the number of can trips and their particular ser, can cover their bases on that front without even thinking about spell slots.

The Dragon Mage has always on Mage armor that can't be dispelled; that alone is worth at least one daily slot.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I am sometimes worried whether the designers were really aware of that. Playtesters should have picked it up, but at least I didn't notice it immediately, that a 5e Wizard works like a 3e Sorcerer that can change his list of known spells each day, so the 5e Wizard is actually a lot better than a 3e Sorcerer
Or even a 3e wizard, in that comparison of flexibility. All the neo-Vancian casters have that benefit. It's a remarkable one, and, IMHO, at least makes up for the fewer slots/day, as it's hard to 'waste' a slot when you can tailor your prepped spells each day, and spontaneously cast the best prepped spell you have for the situation, round by round.

It's really a tricky comparison overall, when there are many things on both classes that affect the amount of casting. Perhaps we could write down the extreme cases such as when a Sorcerer uses all points to create highest-level slots, when it uses all to create lowest-level slots etc...
One advantage of prioritizing balance below class differentiation is that you can afford to use highly disparate class designs that aren't amenable to comparison. It's vanishingly unlikely that the Wizard & Sorcerer balance in any demonstrable mathematical sense, and they might seem radically imbalanced from one campaign or situation to another, but they're too different to ever 'prove' it. And, in the grander scheme of things, you can expect a Sorcerer to shine some times when a Wizard doesn't, and vice versa - and that's a rough sort of balance in it's own right, and one that evokes the feel of the classic game quite handily.
 

Ashrym

Legend
Each wizard has a theme as well, so the spells will typically focus around that theme and work with the wizard

This is a good point.

That is a 44% better chance of getting it right, guy. That IS actually a huge amount in practice. And the difference is more variable at low levels than you claim. The increase is fully 100% at 1st level (with +3 Int). At 4th level (with +4 Int) it's 60%.

The wizard is no more likely nor obligated to pick unreliable spells than the sorcerer is. The fact of the matter is that NO spell is ideal for ALL circumstances. Fireball might reliably deal damage...but you WILL eventually encounter foes that are immune or resistant to fire. And the spell is most efficient when dealing with multiple enemies at once. Even choosing the most reliable spells a character of a spellcasting class is STILL prone to finding themselves in situations where their spells are ineffective.

That is not a 44% better chance of getting it right. A higher percentage of available spells is exactly that -- a higher percentage of available spells. To compare that to frequency that it applies you would need to compare spells available for both classes to the number of situations to which the spells are applied throughout the day.

If 40 actions in and out of combat in a day only create one eventuality where the wizard spell was applicable and the sorcerer did not have a suitable alternative that's 2.5% and not 44% improvement. 2 key combat moments from metamagic would be 5% not available to the wizard. That's a big part of why your premise is flawed; a situation needs to present itself where the wizard spells known actually make that difference regardless of how many more spells might be available.

It's true that a person might face opponents immune or resistant to fire but there is already a feat to fix that, and for it to be a problem outside of the feat solution requires the assumption the sorcerer either has nothing but fire spells or at least didn't pick up at least one back up option to fire. With 9 spells known there's a good chance 6 of them are not fire spells and 8 of them are not fireball, for sure.
 

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