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D&D 5E Sorcerers and Versatility

gyor

Legend
I think the sorceror sacrifices versitlity for flexiblity, they can twist they're spells in ways a wizard can't.


Personally I really like the Favoured Soul Trickster Sorceror. Its a good mix of enchantment, illusions, defencisve buffs, mobility, and polymorph to boot. Add in a couple of blaster spells, like maybe fireball, add in haste, Major Illusion (they can be made permanant), wish at level 9 and Cleric Magical Iniate feat for healing word, Guidance cantrip, spare the dying, for a descent amount of options. Quicken, Twin Spell, Subtle Spell, Extend for Metamagic, Spy background.

No this character isn't a blaster primarily, although when needed the Character can provide firepower, but rather has a beguiler with a religous twist, and some firepower.

Twinned Haste/Blur, Quickened Mirror Image, ect.. are good combat buffs, more out of combat tricks then most Sorcerors, healing word means when required you can act as the party healer and still attack, eventually at will flight, and fireball means you can rain down destruction from above, and best of all, Twinned Dominate Person/Monster. Your mostly a Rogueish Spellcaster Character, and very versitile.
 

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famousringo

First Post
I have been tempted to add a new Metamagic option. Maybe "Wizardly Spell": You can read and scribe spells, have a spellbook that can contain any spells that you find or transcribe from another spellbook from the Wizard's spell list. You can memorize that spell for the day if it is a level that you can cast by spending that many sorcery points to add it to your known spells. You can not apply further metamagic options to spells added this way. You can only maintain one extra spell at a time. You lose the spell from your memory after a long rest.

Or maybe this should be a feat or a subclass. Does this answer versatility complaints while allowing for some niche protection for the Wizard? Or am I totally barking up the wrong tree?
Interesting idea, but metamagic is the wrong place for it. Metamagic picks are precious few, and supposed to modify spells you already have, not give you more spells known. This sounds more like a feat, a specialized version of Magic Initiate.

Not sure I'd be inclined to buy it with a precious feat or metamagic option when I can dip two levels into wizard for a spellbook, a bunch of 1st level spells known, ritual casting for 1st level wizard spells, and a sweet specialization power.

Honestly, I think the Unearthed Arcana subclasses nicely address the versatility issue already. The problem is that they lack the acceptance of officially published options, and if they were published, would perhaps leave the original subclasses looking like inferior trap options.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Honestly, I think the Unearthed Arcana subclasses nicely address the versatility issue already. The problem is that they lack the acceptance of officially published options, and if they were published, would perhaps leave the original subclasses looking like inferior trap options.

They are inferior trap options, only to be used as a last resort when you can't get UA content.
 

Coredump

Explorer
I am not as concerned with the number of known spells..... I think they should get the metamagic choices faster and more.... limited spells is fine, but they should be able to cast them many different ways, not just the big 2 or 3.
 

* The sorcerer has fewer spells known than any other primary caster (other than the warlock...who IMO doesn't really count because of their weird casting mechanic...their at-will invocation abilities...and because the warlock can deal middling martial-level damage with a cantrip).
* The sorcerer knows fewer spells than any other primary caster class that prepares spells can even prepare at one time.
This is a theoretical problem. While wizards can know more spells they won't necessarily prepare more spells. A wizard that only changes a couple spells from their load out doesn't benefit from the increased spell knowledge, and typically just laments having memorized the wrong spell that day.
Plus they can effectively cast more spells through sorcery points.

* Unlike casters that prepare spells, the sorcerer is stuck with the same basic known spells day after day until they gain a new level...and so cannot even adapt that very limited list to a particular challenge or situation.
Again, from play experience, prepared casters tend to change their spells very seldomly. They can, but once they find a combination that works with most situations they stick with it.

* The sorcerer is the ONLY primary caster who does not have the Ritual Caster ability. (Although again this requires an invocation and a pact choice for the warlock).
Ritual casting is useless for a sorcerer. It allows you to cast a spell in your spellbook even if you don't have it prepared. It's most useful for those situational spells you need but didn't memorize.
But a sorcerer will always have those spells prepared, so the ability is of far less use. And few of their spells even have the ritual tag. And the flavour of a sorcerer slowly and methodically casting a spell doesn't work.

* The sorcerer's metamagic abilities compete with the same resource (i.e. sorcery points) as spell slots. So in combination with the lack of Ritual Casting...the class often effectively has fewer spell slots. (But can nova a little better).
Metamagic is awesome though. Both for damage and buffing. Twin spell alone almost counts as an extra spell.
 

Shadowdweller00

Adventurer
Maybe this isn't helpful, but the OP's list of 'problems' the Sorcerer has do sound a bit like complaints lodged against it in 3.x - even though it's completely different, mechanically (as it had to be, since everyone casts spontaneously in 5e). That's actually quite an accomplishment. The 3.x Sorcerer's schtick was given away to everyone (who casts spells), and in spite of that, 5e still captured the original 'feel' of the class.
The 3.x sorcerer had both MORE spell slots and the very significant advantage of spontaneous casting over its 3.x counterparts. That said, the OP was not intended to be a laundry list of complaints or problems with the sorcerer class. The point is that the restrictions on the 5e sorcerer's versatility are hugely more prohibitive in play than all too many are making out. For example:

Ashrym said:
Preparing 10 more spells among 9 spell levels can be nice but it's not like it creates some kind of "I win" option at about 1 more spell at each spell level that wouldn't have already been available to the sorcerer.

Wizards are generally preparing 1 or 2 spells at any given level more than sorcerers so still have a limited selection restricted by spell slots. It's definitely better but how much better is overstated on the forums regularly because people are comparing 10 spells spread over 9 spell levels acquired over 20 character levels and not considering how spread out that actually is.
Those "10 more spells" are nearly double the sorcerer's total repertoire. While the percentage difference varies, given a reasonably optimal build the wizard never has any less than about 30% more prepared spells over the sorcerer's spells known. And starts out at literally double. In actual play this IS in fact a huge power difference considered in the absence of other sorcerer abilities. 5e is in fact as filled with otherwise circumstantial "I win" buttons as the previous editions have been.

Some examples: Featherfall vs elevation obstacles, Protection vs. Good and Evil vs attack-based undead and elementals, Counterspell vs spellcasters, Contagion vs susceptible legendary solo enemies.
 

Shadowdweller00

Adventurer
This is a theoretical problem. While wizards can know more spells they won't necessarily prepare more spells. A wizard that only changes a couple spells from their load out doesn't benefit from the increased spell knowledge, and typically just laments having memorized the wrong spell that day.
Plus they can effectively cast more spells through sorcery points.
That's true I imagine. In the same vein that a druid who doesn't cast any spells doesn't benefit from that class feature. Nor does a monk who refuses to use their ki. It's not exactly a compelling argument for the essential meaninglessness of those class features however...

Again, from play experience, prepared casters tend to change their spells very seldomly. They can, but once they find a combination that works with most situations they stick with it.
I don't generally go about auditing the spell lists of my fellow players too closely....even when I'm DM. But I change my prepared spells around all the time while playing prepared casters. Mostly simple and logical stuff - swap in a few party buffs and non-saveables if I think I'm going to be facing something with legendary and/or spell resistance. Trade my fireball spell out for something else if I'm hunting fire demons. Put in counterspell or silence for a spellcasting foe. Maybe false life for something I think might otherwise one-shot the character. There are a lot of spells that are situationally powerful or necessary but otherwise not something one would want to waste spell picks on.

Ritual casting is useless for a sorcerer. It allows you to cast a spell in your spellbook even if you don't have it prepared. It's most useful for those situational spells you need but didn't memorize.
But a sorcerer will always have those spells prepared, so the ability is of far less use. And few of their spells even have the ritual tag. And the flavour of a sorcerer slowly and methodically casting a spell doesn't work.
Uhh...no. Ritual spells are unusable if not prepared. What they do is save spell slots - so it doesn't actually reduce combat readiness to check whether any of that random junk is actually a valuable magic item or to translate that weird text you've found. Some of them are quite useful but not otherwise worth a spell slot. Try summoning an Unseen Servant to haul around a simple sheet for portable cover next time you get a chance in game.

Metamagic is awesome though. Both for damage and buffing. Twin spell alone almost counts as an extra spell.
Yes. Yes they are.
 
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Li Shenron

Legend
Speaking from my armchair because I haven't seen the comparison in play...

* The sorcerer knows fewer spells than any other primary caster class that prepares spells can even prepare at one time.

* Unlike casters that prepare spells, the sorcerer is stuck with the same basic known spells day after day until they gain a new level...and so cannot even adapt that very limited list to a particular challenge or situation.

I am sometimes worried whether the designers were really aware of that. Playtesters should have picked it up, but at least I didn't notice it immediately, that a 5e Wizard works like a 3e Sorcerer that can change his list of known spells each day, so the 5e Wizard is actually a lot better than a 3e Sorcerer, but how better is a 5e Sorcerer than a 3e Sorcerer? Other stuff in the classes have changed, so it's not easy to tell.

Certainly, Wizards have always been designed to know a lot more spells than Sorcerers. IIRC they go from 6 to 44 at the end of the game, while Sorcerers go from 2 to 15, so roughly a Wizard knows 3 times more spells than a Sorcerer as a basis (i.e. not counting copying spells from scrolls and spellbooks, which might be subject to DM's whims). Sorcerers know one more cantrip, not a huge difference.

On top of the common daily slots chart, Wizard have some extra casting from Arcane Recovery (one of your highest-level slots, or more than one lower-level), Rituals, and Spell Mastery (but this is so high level that I wouldn't use it in the comparison). The question is: how many highest-level slots can a Sorcerer typically create with Spell Points? It'd better be more than one, otherwise the only advantage is being able to do it on the fly while the Wizard needs a short rest to recover the slots.

Rituals are hard to judge... technically they could be seen as worth infinite slots, but the practical limitations are "not in combat" and the number of available rituals in the game, which IMHO tends to be overestimated.

I can only speak from my own experience, but at our table we have had three sorcerers (two dragon, one wild) so far and no wizards, so we are fine with how it is and it seems well-liked, despite (or maybe because of) the things you mention.

Well clearly your situation is not good as a benchmark for comparing Wizards to Sorcerers :) We need to see how the work besides each other.

This is a theoretical problem. While wizards can know more spells they won't necessarily prepare more spells. A wizard that only changes a couple spells from their load out doesn't benefit from the increased spell knowledge, and typically just laments having memorized the wrong spell that day.
Plus they can effectively cast more spells through sorcery points.

What I still don't know is how many more spells per day... I want to see that really the Sorcerer has more firepower than the Wizard if she wants, because I am not at all convinced that Metamagic has the same weight as 3 times more known spells. The Sorcerer will also always have the edge on doing a lot more things on the fly for sure, while the Wizard needs more time (time to cast a Ritual, short rest for Arcane recovery, long rest to switch spells).

It's really a tricky comparison overall, when there are many things on both classes that affect the amount of casting. Perhaps we could write down the extreme cases such as when a Sorcerer uses all points to create highest-level slots, when it uses all to create lowest-level slots etc...
 

Ashrym

Legend
The 3.x sorcerer had both MORE spell slots and the very significant advantage of spontaneous casting over its 3.x counterparts. That said, the OP was not intended to be a laundry list of complaints or problems with the sorcerer class. The point is that the restrictions on the 5e sorcerer's versatility are hugely more prohibitive in play than all too many are making out.

The more slots and spontaneous casting was significantly marginalized by cheap scroll scribing, item creation feats, and bonus feats force wizard in 3.x.

Those "10 more spells" are nearly double the sorcerer's total repertoire. While the percentage difference varies, given a reasonably optimal build the wizard never has any less than about 30% more prepared spells over the sorcerer's spells known. And starts out at literally double. In actual play this IS in fact a huge power difference considered in the absence of other sorcerer abilities. 5e is in fact as filled with otherwise circumstantial "I win" buttons as the previous editions have been.

Some examples: Featherfall vs elevation obstacles, Protection vs. Good and Evil vs attack-based undead and elementals, Counterspell vs spellcasters, Contagion vs susceptible legendary solo enemies.

You are simply demonstrating my point again. 10 spells spread over 9 spell levels is still almost as restrictive as what the sorcerer has.

At 1st level a wizard can prepare 4 spells and a bard knows 4 spells. Twice as many is still only 2 when the bard has 2 slots for the day, the wizard has 3 slots for the day with a short rest, and a warlock knows the 2 spells as well, but also ends up with 3 slots given 2 short rests.

Those spell slots go fast and every other spell action would be with cantrips, which is the advantage to the sorcerer with 1 more than the wizard and 2 more than the bard or warlock. The sorcerer is more likely to have the right cantrips for the job which fill in the most actions.

Not having the right spell is still almost common with the bard or wizard because they both don't have much, much more than they do. If the bard wants rituals they come out of his spells known and this is when the wizard is most likely to have rituals in his book but 1st-level wizard ritual spells aren't game changers.

Going with the wizard, 2 more spells doesn't give much more than the sorcerer but in the event they do then those spell slots are used anyway and the other spells prepared become moot. That's not much different than simply having different spells prepared than more because of the lost opportunity to use them all. More is better but not that much better. When that wizard takes sleep, mage armor, shield, and thunderwave then uses mage armor already those other opportunities you mentioned don't exist. They are part of Shrodinger's wizard.

8 levels later, the wizard has gained ground on sorcerer via INT increases. The sorcerer knows 3/2/2/2/1 spells. The bard stays only 2 spells ahead still at 5/2/2/2/1 and in both cases could have another 5th level spell. It's still only 2 1st-level spells known difference. The wizard prepares 14 spells and that, for example, might look like 3/3/3/3/2 for good spells at each level but it's about 1 additional spell at each given spell level and a huge load of spells still not going to be available. At any given spell level the options are still almost as limited but the sorcerer has metamagic so those existing choices are enhanced. The sorcerer even has a few choices not on the wizard list. A bard going lore added 2 spells and something like 4/3/3/2/2, maybe with uptrades.

Knowing or preparing those additional spells per level doesn't increase the available spells enough to simply have the right spell for the job at any given level. 8 levels of play from the beginning and it's still not much more, and learning or preparing a situational spell is usually superfluous as the the situation doesn't come up while the unanticipated situation still leaves all 3 classes with the wrong spells.

That 9th level sorcerer also relies on cantrips for at-will damage, and only needs a few attack spells. The rest can still be devoted to utility and defense. The wizard also continues to rely on cantrips for damage and the lore bard either sucks worse at damage or gives up secrets to gain what the sorcerer has.

Gaining spells known slows down as the higher level spells become available. The only purpose in this is to continue to restrict access to top level spells. By 14th level a sorcerer might have 3/2/2/2/2/1/1 spells known and the wizard 3/3/3/3/3/2/2 and the lore bard 4/3/3/3/3/2/2 and it's still only a small difference at any given level limited by spell slots. The opportunity cost on spells not taken is almost exactly the same because the what isn't available is huge compared to the difference. There's more opportunity for rituals by this point but they still aren't game changers and replicatable on the sorcerer for a feat.

The gain isn't much until very high levels and still isn't much even then. It's not spell preparation that makes wizards good. If that were the case a person would be better off with a land druid and still have rituals but not have to hunt down spells and would have more prepared than the wizard, and would still have wildshape to cover more oddball situations than hoping to have the right spell on with an extra available per level. What makes wizards good are tradition abilities and spell mastery in the epic tier.

More spells isn't a catch all superiority for wizards. What you listed as major restrictions aren't that different in direct comparison. They are restrictions in comparison but they are overstated because about one spell more per spell level doesn't open up huge gains.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
The more slots and spontaneous casting was significantly marginalized by cheap scroll scribing, item creation feats, and bonus feats force wizard in 3.x.



You are simply demonstrating my point again. 10 spells spread over 9 spell levels is still almost as restrictive as what the sorcerer has.

At 1st level a wizard can prepare 4 spells and a bard knows 4 spells. Twice as many is still only 2 when the bard has 2 slots for the day, the wizard has 3 slots for the day with a short rest, and a warlock knows the 2 spells as well, but also ends up with 3 slots given 2 short rests.

Those spell slots go fast and every other spell action would be with cantrips, which is the advantage to the sorcerer with 1 more than the wizard and 2 more than the bard or warlock. The sorcerer is more likely to have the right cantrips for the job which fill in the most actions.

Not having the right spell is still almost common with the bard or wizard because they both don't have much, much more than they do. If the bard wants rituals they come out of his spells known and this is when the wizard is most likely to have rituals in his book but 1st-level wizard ritual spells aren't game changers.

Going with the wizard, 2 more spells doesn't give much more than the sorcerer but in the event they do then those spell slots are used anyway and the other spells prepared become moot. That's not much different than simply having different spells prepared than more because of the lost opportunity to use them all. More is better but not that much better. When that wizard takes sleep, mage armor, shield, and thunderwave then uses mage armor already those other opportunities you mentioned don't exist. They are part of Shrodinger's wizard.

8 levels later, the wizard has gained ground on sorcerer via INT increases. The sorcerer knows 3/2/2/2/1 spells. The bard stays only 2 spells ahead still at 5/2/2/2/1 and in both cases could have another 5th level spell. It's still only 2 1st-level spells known difference. The wizard prepares 14 spells and that, for example, might look like 3/3/3/3/2 for good spells at each level but it's about 1 additional spell at each given spell level and a huge load of spells still not going to be available. At any given spell level the options are still almost as limited but the sorcerer has metamagic so those existing choices are enhanced. The sorcerer even has a few choices not on the wizard list. A bard going lore added 2 spells and something like 4/3/3/2/2, maybe with uptrades.

Knowing or preparing those additional spells per level doesn't increase the available spells enough to simply have the right spell for the job at any given level. 8 levels of play from the beginning and it's still not much more, and learning or preparing a situational spell is usually superfluous as the the situation doesn't come up while the unanticipated situation still leaves all 3 classes with the wrong spells.

That 9th level sorcerer also relies on cantrips for at-will damage, and only needs a few attack spells. The rest can still be devoted to utility and defense. The wizard also continues to rely on cantrips for damage and the lore bard either sucks worse at damage or gives up secrets to gain what the sorcerer has.

Gaining spells known slows down as the higher level spells become available. The only purpose in this is to continue to restrict access to top level spells. By 14th level a sorcerer might have 3/2/2/2/2/1/1 spells known and the wizard 3/3/3/3/3/2/2 and the lore bard 4/3/3/3/3/2/2 and it's still only a small difference at any given level limited by spell slots. The opportunity cost on spells not taken is almost exactly the same because the what isn't available is huge compared to the difference. There's more opportunity for rituals by this point but they still aren't game changers and replicatable on the sorcerer for a feat.

The gain isn't much until very high levels and still isn't much even then. It's not spell preparation that makes wizards good. If that were the case a person would be better off with a land druid and still have rituals but not have to hunt down spells and would have more prepared than the wizard, and would still have wildshape to cover more oddball situations than hoping to have the right spell on with an extra available per level. What makes wizards good are tradition abilities and spell mastery in the epic tier.

More spells isn't a catch all superiority for wizards. What you listed as major restrictions aren't that different in direct comparison. They are restrictions in comparison but they are overstated because about one spell more per spell level doesn't open up huge gains.

You know, it is hard to feel not restricted when you compare the kind of characters you can create.

Things to miss from 3.x
* Familiars
* Floating disks -and ridding floating disks
* Tiny huts
* Silence
* Rope Trick
* Abjurations from evil
* shadow ponies
* creating extra planes of existence
* Summoning
* Passing through walls
* cursing people
* magical crafting
NO single sorcerer could do all of them, but all sorcerers could do at least some of them. Sorcerers lack longterm magical effects. And they could have them before.
 

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