D&D 5E Sorcerers and Versatility

[FormerlyHemlock]

Metamagic is awesome though. Both for damage and buffing. Twin spell alone almost counts as an extra spell.

Seconded. A paladin of devotion 6/wild sorc 2 in my game is loads of fun already, and he doesn't even have quickened Mirror Image or twin Sanctuary online yet, both of which are fantastic spells for a tank. I find that sorcerers are great once you get it through your head that they are not wizards. They make terrific tanks though when multiclassed.

Tip: use Tides of Chaos and/or Bend Luck when Counterspelling.

 

[Ashrym]

This is not exactly fair, if you read any of my posts I keep saying that lack of versatility is a problem, why is a floating disk bookish? just because it has a wizard's name in the name? why innate is so inferior? why can't I be innate and still craft magically? or what about pets? why can't I have a familiar? (all previous versions of the sorcerer had familiars) why I can't wield a spear (again all sorcerers had spear proficiency) Everything I complain about is about concept, dragon sorcerers are barely palatable, and I could care less for their blasting bonus, but I know it must be worth 10 spells known, and the errata just makes me rethink it.



Yes, I took it as a big "Sorry we screwed up this class, here have something that addresses the problem". As long as they keep metamagic away from everybody else I willl be happy.

3e to 5e comparison isn't relevant. All spellcasters were cut back a lot. It's not like wizards don't miss metamagic, bonus feats, stacking buffs, and teleport without error.

What you are describing is just part of the general cutback to spellcasters.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

A level 5 sorcerer knows 6 spells and had the opportunity to retrain 4 times. A level 5 wizards knows 14 spells, minimum.

No, eight spells minimum, the same number he had prepared when he lost his spell book. I've seen a 5E wizard lose his spellbook and not have a backup.

 

[MoonSong]

3e to 5e comparison isn't relevant. All spellcasters were cut back a lot. It's not like wizards don't miss metamagic, bonus feats, stacking buffs, and teleport without error.

What you are describing is just part of the general cutback to spellcasters.

Wizards still can do those things, I'm sorry but I fail to see how a pet raven or a floating disk would make the sorecerer overpowered, the new edition practically shut down any chance to create a long term magical effect.

 

[Ashrym]

No, eight spells minimum, the same number he had prepared when he lost his spell book. I've seen a 5E wizard lose his spellbook and not have a backup.

Ouch. True but ouch.

Wizards still can do those things, I'm sorry but I fail to see how a pet raven or a floating disk would make the sorecerer overpowered, the new edition practically shut down any chance to create a long term magical effect.

Wizards can't do any of the things I just listed. Metamagic is sorcerer only, bonus feats are fighters and rogues, concentration killed stacking buffs and stacking controlling effects and maintaining a buff plus status effect with few exceptions, and teleport without error doesn't exist. Teleport is a higher level spell with high miss risk on an extremely limited slot system.

The new edition shut a lot for,all spell casters. A familiar is still available for sorcerers in the ritual caster feat.

The risk is in giving enough flexibility to a sorcerer as to make wizards pointless because the decision point comes to either a versatile spell caster or a versatile spell caster with metamagic, which is a nobrainer.

 

[DaveDash]

Just for comparisons sake here is the Wizard players spellbook (Level 16 Wizard) in my campaign vs my level 17 Sorcerer spells picked. Also note the Wizard still has a couple of spells to pick to add to his book which he hasn't.

Three other things to note - as you level up it becomes easier and easier to scout and prepare for whats coming, and it becomes rarer that you run out of spell slots for the day. Ritual casting has also saved the party on a few occasions - be it leomunds tiny hut + alarm protecting them from ambushes at night, detect magic finding deadly magical traps, find familiar to use the familiar to scout and enable the Wizard player to attack with Bigby's hand from around corners, or Rary's telepathic link allowing them to strategize and communicate when talking would otherwise be impossible.

The difference is..... striking. I know which of the two classes I'd rather in my group 90% of the time.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Just for fun, here's the paladin/wild sorc in my test party. Please pay particular attention to the sorcerer spell list in bold:

Name: Cranduin the Lesser
Age: 26. Physical age: 17--thanks wild magic :-/
Background: Urchin (easygoing, loves kids, always kind)
Race: Human
Class: Paladin of Devotion 6/Wild Sorcerer 2 [Planned: Paladin 11, Wild Sorcerer 9]
Stats: ST 16 DX 10 CN 16 IN 11 WS 15 CH 19
AC: 21 (Full armor/shield/defense style)
HP: 72 (+13)
To-hit: +6 (weapons) or +7 (spells)
Spell DC: 15
Attacks: Fire Bolt +7/2d10, Longsword 2x+6/1d8+3
Feats: Lucky, +2 CH [Planned: +1 CH +1 DX, Mounted Combatant, Great Weapon Master]
Skills (+3): Athletics, Stealth, Medicine, Sleight of Hand, Perception, Disguise Kit, Thieves' Tools,
Common, Elvish
Equipment: Plate Armor, Longsword, Shield, Longbow, Chain mail, explorer's pack
XP: 37987

Spells: [SP: 27 / 4 3 2; MP 2]
C1. Prestidigitation
C2. Fire Bolt
C3. Mending
C4. Blade ward
1. Shield
2. Expeditious Retreat (Force run!)
3. Disguise Self
[Planned at 10th level: Shield, Absorb Elements, Mirror Image, Counterspell, Fireball, Expeditious Retreat, Hold Monster, Polymorph, Enlarge, Animate Objects]
[Planned metamagics: Twin Spell, Quicken Spell]

1. Bless
2. Shield of Faith
3. Magic Weapon
4. Cure Wounds
5. Aid
6. Command
P1. Sanctuary
P1. Protection From Evil
P2. Lesser Restoration
P2. Zone of Truth

If he ever gets to 9th level as a sorcerer he'll have 10 spells, and each and every one of the spells on that list radically expands his capabilities as the party tank/protector. He will get plenty of utility out of the paladin spell list as well (Create Food and Water, Dispel Magic, etc.) but so far what has really been excellent has been the defensive spells on the sorcerer list (Expeditious Retreat, Shield) and I'm really looking forward to Quickened Polymorph (Self + Steed: now we're Tyrannosaurs!), Quickened Hold Monster (+ smite for double damage!), Quickened Animate Objects for backup, Quickened Enlarge + Mounted Combatant to GWM attack large creatures with advantage for 4d6+1d8+13 = 31.5 points of damage, twice, plus 4d6+4 more from my warhorse (possibly twice), for potentially up to 99 points of damage per round at the low, low cost of 3 SP and 2 sorcery points (MP).

This is what I mean when I say that sorcerers are fine once you realize they're not wizards. As a wizard, I'd be feeling paranoid about the fact that my spells don't cover all possible saves (especially Dex, Int, and Con), that I only have a single option for retreating (Expeditious Retreat), that I don't make particularly efficient use of Concentration, that my one spell for creating meat shields is short-duration, that I have no stealth spells, etc. But as a paladin/sorcerer, I don't think about any of that. I'm just overjoyed at how many more options I have by multiclassing to sorc than I would if I stayed pure Paladin. Twin Revivify? Sure! Twin Shield of Faith? Why not? Twin Aura of Vitality? ...Probably not, but I wish.

It's a good trade. Counterspelling-with-advantage alone is probably as good as the paladin capstone I gave up, and I got nine other abilities besides. Sorcerers may not be versatile but they sure are fun.

 

[DaveDash]

That's not a Sorcerer. That's a Paladin/Sorcerer.

I think it's been established quite early on that muliclassing is one way out of Sorcerer problems, which only really goes to reinforce the original point.

 

[Parmandur]

It's not the size of the spell list, it's what you do with it.

 

[CapnZapp]

It's the baseline, not the minimum. It will vary dramatically based on the campaign.

How do you define "minimum"? I can't envision a campaign with fewer spells in the wizard's spellbook than what the PHB grants for free.

Perhaps you meant to say "it's not just the minimum, it's also the baseline"?

A DM can choose to allow spells to be more readily available for purchase and award lots of scrolls as treasure. But a DM can also have powerful NPCs impart more spell knowledge into a sorcerer if desired.

As long as you don't equate the probabilities of these two things happening.

Finding spell books and spell scrolls are far more likely than finding "bonus spells known". I hope you agree since the former can happen anytime the DM interprets "enemy spellcaster" = specifically a enemy wizard, anytime the DM wants to answer the question how a wizardlike NPC stores her spells, and anytime the DM rolls on the official random treasure tables and ends up with a spell scroll.

While the latter happens if and only if the DM by her own initiative decides to throw a sorcerer a bone above and beyond what the rulebook gives him.

I feel it's safe to make the baseline assumption this: wizards very often (but not always) get more than two spells per level, while sorcerers (PHB sorcerers, at any rate) very seldom get more than one spell per level.