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<blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 6639714" data-attributes="member: 6750235"><p>The more slots and spontaneous casting was significantly marginalized by cheap scroll scribing, item creation feats, and bonus feats force wizard in 3.x. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You are simply demonstrating my point again. 10 spells spread over 9 spell levels is still almost as restrictive as what the sorcerer has.</p><p></p><p>At 1st level a wizard can prepare 4 spells and a bard knows 4 spells. Twice as many is still only 2 when the bard has 2 slots for the day, the wizard has 3 slots for the day with a short rest, and a warlock knows the 2 spells as well, but also ends up with 3 slots given 2 short rests. </p><p></p><p>Those spell slots go fast and every other spell action would be with cantrips, which is the advantage to the sorcerer with 1 more than the wizard and 2 more than the bard or warlock. The sorcerer is more likely to have the right cantrips for the job which fill in the most actions.</p><p></p><p>Not having the right spell is still almost common with the bard or wizard because they both don't have much, much more than they do. If the bard wants rituals they come out of his spells known and this is when the wizard is most likely to have rituals in his book but 1st-level wizard ritual spells aren't game changers.</p><p></p><p>Going with the wizard, 2 more spells doesn't give much more than the sorcerer but in the event they do then those spell slots are used anyway and the other spells prepared become moot. That's not much different than simply having different spells prepared than more because of the lost opportunity to use them all. More is better but not that much better. When that wizard takes sleep, mage armor, shield, and thunderwave then uses mage armor already those other opportunities you mentioned don't exist. They are part of Shrodinger's wizard. </p><p></p><p>8 levels later, the wizard has gained ground on sorcerer via INT increases. The sorcerer knows 3/2/2/2/1 spells. The bard stays only 2 spells ahead still at 5/2/2/2/1 and in both cases could have another 5th level spell. It's still only 2 1st-level spells known difference. The wizard prepares 14 spells and that, for example, might look like 3/3/3/3/2 for good spells at each level but it's about 1 additional spell at each given spell level and a huge load of spells still not going to be available. At any given spell level the options are still almost as limited but the sorcerer has metamagic so those existing choices are enhanced. The sorcerer even has a few choices not on the wizard list. A bard going lore added 2 spells and something like 4/3/3/2/2, maybe with uptrades. </p><p></p><p>Knowing or preparing those additional spells per level doesn't increase the available spells enough to simply have the right spell for the job at any given level. 8 levels of play from the beginning and it's still not much more, and learning or preparing a situational spell is usually superfluous as the the situation doesn't come up while the unanticipated situation still leaves all 3 classes with the wrong spells. </p><p></p><p>That 9th level sorcerer also relies on cantrips for at-will damage, and only needs a few attack spells. The rest can still be devoted to utility and defense. The wizard also continues to rely on cantrips for damage and the lore bard either sucks worse at damage or gives up secrets to gain what the sorcerer has.</p><p></p><p>Gaining spells known slows down as the higher level spells become available. The only purpose in this is to continue to restrict access to top level spells. By 14th level a sorcerer might have 3/2/2/2/2/1/1 spells known and the wizard 3/3/3/3/3/2/2 and the lore bard 4/3/3/3/3/2/2 and it's still only a small difference at any given level limited by spell slots. The opportunity cost on spells not taken is almost exactly the same because the what isn't available is huge compared to the difference. There's more opportunity for rituals by this point but they still aren't game changers and replicatable on the sorcerer for a feat.</p><p></p><p>The gain isn't much until very high levels and still isn't much even then. It's not spell preparation that makes wizards good. If that were the case a person would be better off with a land druid and still have rituals but not have to hunt down spells and would have more prepared than the wizard, and would still have wildshape to cover more oddball situations than hoping to have the right spell on with an extra available per level. What makes wizards good are tradition abilities and spell mastery in the epic tier.</p><p></p><p>More spells isn't a catch all superiority for wizards. What you listed as major restrictions aren't that different in direct comparison. They are restrictions in comparison but they are overstated because about one spell more per spell level doesn't open up huge gains.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ashrym, post: 6639714, member: 6750235"] The more slots and spontaneous casting was significantly marginalized by cheap scroll scribing, item creation feats, and bonus feats force wizard in 3.x. You are simply demonstrating my point again. 10 spells spread over 9 spell levels is still almost as restrictive as what the sorcerer has. At 1st level a wizard can prepare 4 spells and a bard knows 4 spells. Twice as many is still only 2 when the bard has 2 slots for the day, the wizard has 3 slots for the day with a short rest, and a warlock knows the 2 spells as well, but also ends up with 3 slots given 2 short rests. Those spell slots go fast and every other spell action would be with cantrips, which is the advantage to the sorcerer with 1 more than the wizard and 2 more than the bard or warlock. The sorcerer is more likely to have the right cantrips for the job which fill in the most actions. Not having the right spell is still almost common with the bard or wizard because they both don't have much, much more than they do. If the bard wants rituals they come out of his spells known and this is when the wizard is most likely to have rituals in his book but 1st-level wizard ritual spells aren't game changers. Going with the wizard, 2 more spells doesn't give much more than the sorcerer but in the event they do then those spell slots are used anyway and the other spells prepared become moot. That's not much different than simply having different spells prepared than more because of the lost opportunity to use them all. More is better but not that much better. When that wizard takes sleep, mage armor, shield, and thunderwave then uses mage armor already those other opportunities you mentioned don't exist. They are part of Shrodinger's wizard. 8 levels later, the wizard has gained ground on sorcerer via INT increases. The sorcerer knows 3/2/2/2/1 spells. The bard stays only 2 spells ahead still at 5/2/2/2/1 and in both cases could have another 5th level spell. It's still only 2 1st-level spells known difference. The wizard prepares 14 spells and that, for example, might look like 3/3/3/3/2 for good spells at each level but it's about 1 additional spell at each given spell level and a huge load of spells still not going to be available. At any given spell level the options are still almost as limited but the sorcerer has metamagic so those existing choices are enhanced. The sorcerer even has a few choices not on the wizard list. A bard going lore added 2 spells and something like 4/3/3/2/2, maybe with uptrades. Knowing or preparing those additional spells per level doesn't increase the available spells enough to simply have the right spell for the job at any given level. 8 levels of play from the beginning and it's still not much more, and learning or preparing a situational spell is usually superfluous as the the situation doesn't come up while the unanticipated situation still leaves all 3 classes with the wrong spells. That 9th level sorcerer also relies on cantrips for at-will damage, and only needs a few attack spells. The rest can still be devoted to utility and defense. The wizard also continues to rely on cantrips for damage and the lore bard either sucks worse at damage or gives up secrets to gain what the sorcerer has. Gaining spells known slows down as the higher level spells become available. The only purpose in this is to continue to restrict access to top level spells. By 14th level a sorcerer might have 3/2/2/2/2/1/1 spells known and the wizard 3/3/3/3/3/2/2 and the lore bard 4/3/3/3/3/2/2 and it's still only a small difference at any given level limited by spell slots. The opportunity cost on spells not taken is almost exactly the same because the what isn't available is huge compared to the difference. There's more opportunity for rituals by this point but they still aren't game changers and replicatable on the sorcerer for a feat. The gain isn't much until very high levels and still isn't much even then. It's not spell preparation that makes wizards good. If that were the case a person would be better off with a land druid and still have rituals but not have to hunt down spells and would have more prepared than the wizard, and would still have wildshape to cover more oddball situations than hoping to have the right spell on with an extra available per level. What makes wizards good are tradition abilities and spell mastery in the epic tier. More spells isn't a catch all superiority for wizards. What you listed as major restrictions aren't that different in direct comparison. They are restrictions in comparison but they are overstated because about one spell more per spell level doesn't open up huge gains. [/QUOTE]
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