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<blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 6640763" data-attributes="member: 6750235"><p>To whom it might be relevant (I might have lost track, doh!), I think it's you missing the point and not me. I agree that more spells known is an advantage over less spells known. The other argument was based on the fact that wizards aren't necessarily going to keep the same spells as the sorcerer and if they choose not to then they can make a mistake. A constant list just means taking less advantage of the preparation mechanic. My argument is based on the same basis as yours where the lists remain similar and the few more carry less potential impact for successful or unsuccessful choices.</p><p></p><p>More spells readily available is an advantage.</p><p></p><p>The problem with your argument is that it's not that much advantage with careful spell selection to offset other advantages. </p><p></p><p>When you responded to me you pointed out that a feat can give AC too. All that did was keep them on equal footing at one feat cost for the same AC and rituals. That doesn't demonstrate superiority for wizards. It demonstrates equality in those 2 areas while still having removed rituals as am advantage. </p><p></p><p>When you went further on, you mentioned the additional spells were just for illustrative purposes beyond enhance ability having been listed. That doesn't eliminate enhance ability as a good choice and not available to the wizard. Instead, you would go with a different good choice. Between different good choices all we have is different and not superior. </p><p></p><p>What I find interesting is those other good options. Flaming sphere certainly isn't a bad spell but the damage is easy enough to avoid outside of the bonus action attack and that does 7 damage while elemental affinity already does up to 5 (likely 4 at 6th level) without using up the bonus action, concentration, or a spell slot. Pyrotechnics is a one-trick-pony style of use that eats up spell slots even faster. At that point you have pyrotechnics, flaming sphere, likely levitate since it was used in your example, and only one more spell in your spellbook for 2nd-level from level up choices.</p><p></p><p>That lets you do a bit more damage for 3 encounters, maybe 4, and less the rest of the time while running out of slots first. It's also a damage plus utility plus levitate vs damage plus utility plus levitate. This gets back to simply being different over better because enhance ability will cover more diversity than your one other 2nd-level spell. </p><p></p><p>I am not underestimating rituals because using them always costs your concentration and the bad guys just aren't going to stand and wait while you cast leomunds. The fight's over before it's cast. They also aren't necessarily available in the spellbook because of limited choices adding spells to the book and the need to find more. We've also already agreed that the sorcerer can duplicate the feature anyway.</p><p></p><p>I think flaming sphere is a good spell, btw, but having taken that good spell doesn't preclude a sorcerer from simply having different good spells available. </p><p></p><p>You just aren't convincing me of this gap between the classes. What I see is the expectation that sorcerers should be wizards instead of similar but different because of a focus on the wizard differences while the sorcerer benefits are good too.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ashrym, post: 6640763, member: 6750235"] To whom it might be relevant (I might have lost track, doh!), I think it's you missing the point and not me. I agree that more spells known is an advantage over less spells known. The other argument was based on the fact that wizards aren't necessarily going to keep the same spells as the sorcerer and if they choose not to then they can make a mistake. A constant list just means taking less advantage of the preparation mechanic. My argument is based on the same basis as yours where the lists remain similar and the few more carry less potential impact for successful or unsuccessful choices. More spells readily available is an advantage. The problem with your argument is that it's not that much advantage with careful spell selection to offset other advantages. When you responded to me you pointed out that a feat can give AC too. All that did was keep them on equal footing at one feat cost for the same AC and rituals. That doesn't demonstrate superiority for wizards. It demonstrates equality in those 2 areas while still having removed rituals as am advantage. When you went further on, you mentioned the additional spells were just for illustrative purposes beyond enhance ability having been listed. That doesn't eliminate enhance ability as a good choice and not available to the wizard. Instead, you would go with a different good choice. Between different good choices all we have is different and not superior. What I find interesting is those other good options. Flaming sphere certainly isn't a bad spell but the damage is easy enough to avoid outside of the bonus action attack and that does 7 damage while elemental affinity already does up to 5 (likely 4 at 6th level) without using up the bonus action, concentration, or a spell slot. Pyrotechnics is a one-trick-pony style of use that eats up spell slots even faster. At that point you have pyrotechnics, flaming sphere, likely levitate since it was used in your example, and only one more spell in your spellbook for 2nd-level from level up choices. That lets you do a bit more damage for 3 encounters, maybe 4, and less the rest of the time while running out of slots first. It's also a damage plus utility plus levitate vs damage plus utility plus levitate. This gets back to simply being different over better because enhance ability will cover more diversity than your one other 2nd-level spell. I am not underestimating rituals because using them always costs your concentration and the bad guys just aren't going to stand and wait while you cast leomunds. The fight's over before it's cast. They also aren't necessarily available in the spellbook because of limited choices adding spells to the book and the need to find more. We've also already agreed that the sorcerer can duplicate the feature anyway. I think flaming sphere is a good spell, btw, but having taken that good spell doesn't preclude a sorcerer from simply having different good spells available. You just aren't convincing me of this gap between the classes. What I see is the expectation that sorcerers should be wizards instead of similar but different because of a focus on the wizard differences while the sorcerer benefits are good too. [/QUOTE]
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