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Sorcerers and Versatility
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<blockquote data-quote="Delandel" data-source="post: 6640790" data-attributes="member: 81364"><p>Goodness. You downplay the versatility power of the wizard so much that if I valued your posts as gospel I would think that the wizard seriously needs buffs! Very rare and specific situations where the poor wizard can do greatness, unlike those sorcerers with their super powerful metamagic.</p><p></p><p>I mean, really. There's no point debating with you.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Alright, the sorcerer goes and takes Ritual Caster. It gives him 2 ritual 1st lvl ritual spells. That can boost out 6th level sorcerer from 7 spells known to 9, versus the wizard's 16 spells. This doesn't magically close the gap.</p><p></p><p>Meanwhile, the abjuration wizard picks up Lightly Armored. It gives him access to padded leather armor, 12+DEX AC, plus a +1 to his DEX. This is either 1 less AC if the DEX is bumped to an odd number, or equal AC plus extra DEX-related bonuses (saves mostly, both vs. attacks and adventuring) if the DEX is bumped to an even number. This either is close to closing the gap, or equals (and exceeds) it.</p><p></p><p>And you conveniently ignored the "extra 6 HP" argument: that the abjuration wizard is getting at least 16 extra HP from his ability, that he can lend to his allies, and that he can recharge to further its potency. </p><p></p><p>So no, it's not equal.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The sorcerer gets, hm, one good spell that the wizard doesn't have access to? How many spells does the wizard get that the sorcerer doesn't? How many good ones? You REALLY think it's equal? You're going to fight this too? We can. Go look up all the wizard-exclusive spells vs. the sorcerer ones.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You're still nitpicking an illustrative example that was made in a response to a different subject. I have no idea why, but I'll entertain it.</p><p></p><p>First of all, flaming sphere hits multiple foes. You do not use this against one creature. You use something else against one creature (wizard spell versatility, remember?).</p><p></p><p>Pyrotechnics is good, and wizards can afford to have "one trick ponies," as you underplay it.</p><p></p><p>Finally, if we're rearranging the wizard spell list optimally, I may not even take levitate. No, I'm not going to cobble together a list just for you. I'll entertain this conversation but not waste that much time on it. You can. Feel free to.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Anyone with basic knowledge of rituals in 5e knows they're meant for out of combat utility. To start downplaying their effectiveness because of difficulty casting in combat is downright absurd.</p><p></p><p><s>You're not even correct about concentration, only 2 out of 18 rituals available require concentration.</s> EDIT: Sorry, you meant while casting, not maintaining. You're right but it's an irrelevant point to make due to it being out of combat utility.</p><p></p><p>As for the leomund's hut example, two ways it shines: </p><p></p><p>1) There's not always "safe rest areas" as you describe. Say you're making camp in a dangerous environment, like a dungeon (as adventurers generally find themselves in), and your party is low on resources to handle a fight in the night. You set it up so wandering monsters don't ruin your night. </p><p></p><p>2) you're in a position where you have to defend a location from enemies you know will arrive later on. Maybe you're defending a town. Maybe you've set up a defense in a narrow tunnel. Whatever the situation, you cast it, and now you have an impenetrable defense in that spot. It's tactical. The opponents can't assault your spot, and if they try, they eat arrows while you have no fear of reprisal.</p><p></p><p>So yes, you are underestimating rituals.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Wizards get more, many more spells available, and many more good spells. That's my point. (For what reason, I don't know.)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You see what you want to see and you never were going to be convinced anyway.</p><p></p><p>I never said sorcerer should be wizards. OP never said they should. DaveDash never said they should.</p><p></p><p>If you need a refresher and can't find the OP main point, it's here:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>We are saying that the sorcerer's metamagic was intended to balance out their lack of spell versatility, by giving them ways to modify the limited spells they know to cover their bases. But in practice, the limited metamagics and plain bad metamagics leave something to be desired.</p><p></p><p>THAT is what we're arguing in this thread before Jester and yourself derail things in "oh but the wizard's good things aren't that good."</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Delandel, post: 6640790, member: 81364"] Goodness. You downplay the versatility power of the wizard so much that if I valued your posts as gospel I would think that the wizard seriously needs buffs! Very rare and specific situations where the poor wizard can do greatness, unlike those sorcerers with their super powerful metamagic. I mean, really. There's no point debating with you. Alright, the sorcerer goes and takes Ritual Caster. It gives him 2 ritual 1st lvl ritual spells. That can boost out 6th level sorcerer from 7 spells known to 9, versus the wizard's 16 spells. This doesn't magically close the gap. Meanwhile, the abjuration wizard picks up Lightly Armored. It gives him access to padded leather armor, 12+DEX AC, plus a +1 to his DEX. This is either 1 less AC if the DEX is bumped to an odd number, or equal AC plus extra DEX-related bonuses (saves mostly, both vs. attacks and adventuring) if the DEX is bumped to an even number. This either is close to closing the gap, or equals (and exceeds) it. And you conveniently ignored the "extra 6 HP" argument: that the abjuration wizard is getting at least 16 extra HP from his ability, that he can lend to his allies, and that he can recharge to further its potency. So no, it's not equal. The sorcerer gets, hm, one good spell that the wizard doesn't have access to? How many spells does the wizard get that the sorcerer doesn't? How many good ones? You REALLY think it's equal? You're going to fight this too? We can. Go look up all the wizard-exclusive spells vs. the sorcerer ones. You're still nitpicking an illustrative example that was made in a response to a different subject. I have no idea why, but I'll entertain it. First of all, flaming sphere hits multiple foes. You do not use this against one creature. You use something else against one creature (wizard spell versatility, remember?). Pyrotechnics is good, and wizards can afford to have "one trick ponies," as you underplay it. Finally, if we're rearranging the wizard spell list optimally, I may not even take levitate. No, I'm not going to cobble together a list just for you. I'll entertain this conversation but not waste that much time on it. You can. Feel free to. Anyone with basic knowledge of rituals in 5e knows they're meant for out of combat utility. To start downplaying their effectiveness because of difficulty casting in combat is downright absurd. [s]You're not even correct about concentration, only 2 out of 18 rituals available require concentration.[/s] EDIT: Sorry, you meant while casting, not maintaining. You're right but it's an irrelevant point to make due to it being out of combat utility. As for the leomund's hut example, two ways it shines: 1) There's not always "safe rest areas" as you describe. Say you're making camp in a dangerous environment, like a dungeon (as adventurers generally find themselves in), and your party is low on resources to handle a fight in the night. You set it up so wandering monsters don't ruin your night. 2) you're in a position where you have to defend a location from enemies you know will arrive later on. Maybe you're defending a town. Maybe you've set up a defense in a narrow tunnel. Whatever the situation, you cast it, and now you have an impenetrable defense in that spot. It's tactical. The opponents can't assault your spot, and if they try, they eat arrows while you have no fear of reprisal. So yes, you are underestimating rituals. Wizards get more, many more spells available, and many more good spells. That's my point. (For what reason, I don't know.) You see what you want to see and you never were going to be convinced anyway. I never said sorcerer should be wizards. OP never said they should. DaveDash never said they should. If you need a refresher and can't find the OP main point, it's here: We are saying that the sorcerer's metamagic was intended to balance out their lack of spell versatility, by giving them ways to modify the limited spells they know to cover their bases. But in practice, the limited metamagics and plain bad metamagics leave something to be desired. THAT is what we're arguing in this thread before Jester and yourself derail things in "oh but the wizard's good things aren't that good." [/QUOTE]
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