Sorcerors in d&d

[hopeless]

I have a question for you.
In a greyhawk game I designed up a halfling sorceror selecting to toughness feat for 1st level and the Extend Spell feat for 3rd.
Spell wise she started off with;
0th: Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Disrupt Undead and Mage Hand. She picked up Read Magic at 2nd since the dm decided Sorcerors were dependent on scrolls for spells even though this does mean the sorceror class pretty much doesn't exist as all d&d classes are supposed to be separate and none are dependent on the others for their class features.
(Sorry old jibe)

1st: Magic Missile and Shield. Gained Identify at 3rd level because she was the only arcane spellcaster.

Now what I'd like to know is your point of view on this?
Could I have selected something better or did you follow a different theory, consider this a thread to discuss designing sorcerors if you will.

 

[delericho]

She picked up Read Magic at 2nd since the dm decided Sorcerors were dependent on scrolls for spells

What do you mean by this? Do you mean that your Sorcerer can only learn new spells if she has a scroll of the spell from which to learn them? (If that's the case, retire the character and start a new one. Your DM has just nerfed the weakest class rather spectacularly.)

 

[amethal]

I have a question for you.
In a greyhawk game I designed up a halfling sorceror selecting to toughness feat for 1st level and the Extend Spell feat for 3rd.
Spell wise she started off with;
0th: Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Disrupt Undead and Mage Hand. She picked up Read Magic at 2nd since the dm decided Sorcerors were dependent on scrolls for spells even though this does mean the sorceror class pretty much doesn't exist as all d&d classes are supposed to be separate and none are dependent on the others for their class features.
(Sorry old jibe)

1st: Magic Missile and Shield. Gained Identify at 3rd level because she was the only arcane spellcaster.

Now what I'd like to know is your point of view on this?
Could I have selected something better or did you follow a different theory, consider this a thread to discuss designing sorcerors if you will.

The toughness feat is great for a first level sorcerer but as you go up levels it becomes pretty useless. I wouldn't recommend anyone taking it.

Why did you take Extend Spell? As far as I can tell, all it is doing at the moment is allowing you to use a first level spell slot to cast an extended dancing lights or an extended detect magic, which isn't very useful.

As a rule, I would take metamagic feats later on in your career (if at all), when you have more options with them.

I like the various heritage feats in Complete Arcane and Players Handbook 2 (and apparently Complete Mage), and the bloodline feats from Dragon Compendium, but if you don't have access to those books its a moot point.

I have always found improved initiative to be a useful feat for spellcasters.

Spell selection is an area where opinions differ, and there isn't a "best" choice.

Personally, I think sleep is a more useful first level attacking spell as it affects more opponents (and a solitary 1d4+1 magic missile isn't very impressive).

I also think mage armour is a better defensive spell than shield, as its longer duration means you can cast it in advance, rather than having to wait until combat is imminent. (Also, if you have a monk in the party, consider casting it on them as well - it will give you a friend for life.)

As a halfling, presumably your AC is pretty good anyway, so you might have foregone a defensive spell completely in order to have two offensive spells, such as sleep and magic missile.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I wouldn't bother with identify; much better to have another utility spell or effect spell - something

Colour spray is a good area zap spell which remains potent into the future, for instance. Truestrike is a spell you can cast over and over again without it getting tired, unseen servant can do all kinds of useful little tasks and has a long duration...

 

[Plane Sailing]

Unlike amethal, I would recommend against sleep, since it is so useless now - what with a 1 round casting time AND they get a save AND it is only 4 hd of creatures max. Why bother? Zap 'em in one go with colour spray for a quicker effect that will probably get more creatures

Regarding feats - I agree that toughness is pretty pointless, and would recommend against it. That 3hp buffer isn't much if you get attacked by something at this level. I do think that there are metamagic feats that are worth taking straight away though - not extend spell, since it is so limited, but silent spell and/or still spell are great spells to be able to have at low level because they come up sometimes (like when you cast a silent ghost sound in order to distract someone without giving away your own position by the sound of your casting)

Cheers

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Oh my god, don't let certain people here see this. They'll kill you over the net for not getting 3.0 spellcasting prodigy and the highest-ranking feat from the Big Netbook of Munchkin Sorcerer Feats.

Now, for the spell selection:

I always liked prestidigitation - one of the most useful level 0 spells I think. Forget read magic - either your DM reconsiders the part about sorcerers needing scrolls or you can forget sorcerers anyway.

Magic missile and shield are nice ones. Depending on what you want form it, you might want to exchange Shield for Mage Armour. It really depends on what you want to do with it. Mage armour lasts longer, but armour bonuses are easier to come buy with magic items, and the Shield takes care of magic missiles. Either one can work well, though.

Identify is wasted I'd say, especially for a sorcerer and his limited spell selection. I second the colour spray idea. Charm person can also be useful to make friends.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

If you're a sorcerer, hire an NPC to cast Identify. You need the slot.

I agree that Prestidigitation is good, and I really think that Color Spray is the new Sleep. Get either Mage Armor or Shield, but not both. Magic Missile is kind of boring, but force damage is awesome and will ensure you always have something you can do when, say, your DM faces you to fight an incorporeal monster at level 2 (my players are going to beat me).

I would go with Spell Focus instead of Toughness.

There's a good thread over at the Giant in the Playground boards about making an oober wizard. A lot of it is applicable to sorcerers, too. Goodman Games' Power-Gamers Guide to Mages is also quite good and you can't help but make a robust sorcerer reading it.

 

[Emirikol]

If you run a sorcerer you need to ask the DM a couple questions about magic item availability (i.e. are there magic shops with 'cheap' items available?):
Potions
Scrolls
Wands

If so, you don't have to worry about your spells at all. Just get scrolls and wands and fire up a storm. If not, don't waste any slots on stupid spells.

if the DM doesn't have some cheap items available (for example, you should pressure your Dm into allowing up to 300gp magical items in most cities).

If you're going to play a sorcerer just to toss around magic missile and other lame offensive spells, I'd recommend playing a warlock from the complete arcane instead. They're better and cooler.

jh

 

[hopeless]

Sorceror's in d&d

Quote:
Originally Posted by hopelessShe picked up Read Magic at 2nd since the dm decided Sorcerors were dependent on scrolls for spells
What do you mean by this? Do you mean that your Sorcerer can only learn new spells if she has a scroll of the spell from which to learn them? (If that's the case, retire the character and start a new one. Your DM has just nerfed the weakest class rather spectacularly.)

Yes that’s pretty much what I thought but up to that point there had been only 3 sorcerors’ run at that club.

The first was when my cleric was aged 60 years by means of 2nd edition rules in a 3.0 game although the charcter was originally 2nd editon before being converted over.
The 2nd was run by a new player whose charcter was blown up after levitating down a pit filled with positive energy and the dm almost killed off my cleric/sorceror as well after first stating you had to gain a significant amount of extra hp before it happened and then tried to do it when my character went 1hp over.
This halfling is the third.


The toughness feat is great for a first level sorcerer but as you go up levels it becomes pretty useless. I wouldn't recommend anyone taking it.

I took toughness because I expected a high mortality rate since there was 9 players (Half Orc Barbarians x2, Human Bard, Cleric and Monk x1, Half Orc Druid x1, Dwarven Fighter x1, Elven Fighter x1, Halfling Sorceress x1 and later on after the Bard and two Barbarian’s players stopped coming a Human Rogue and 2 Elven Rangers were added in their stead.)


Why did you take Extend Spell? As far as I can tell, all it is doing at the moment is allowing you to use a first level spell slot to cast an extended dancing lights or an extended detect magic, which isn't very useful.

Originally the choice was between Enlarge spell, Energy Substitution and Extend spell since I was trying to run my character without a dependency on material spell components and hoped to pick up Eschew Material either at 6th level or having got the dm to let me use a variant rule for Summon Familiar from the Book of Familiars wher it gave me a bonus feat from a limited list at 3rd, 9th and 15th level to see if he'd allow me to swap the lot for a single bonus feat.

I like the various heritage feats in Complete Arcane and Players Handbook 2 (and apparently Complete Mage), and the bloodline feats from Dragon Compendium, but if you don't have access to those books its a moot point.

I've got some of those but doubt he'd allow it since it was a 3.0 game not 3.5

I have always found improved initiative to be a useful feat for spellcasters.
My experience is that its not the first person to act who wins but the last one standing and after having my cleric/sorceror avoid a 2nd edition rules flame strike scroll in a 3.0 game because he was casting spells before moving and the dm running that game declared you could only make a 5' move if you did cast before moving something that I believe only applies to metamagic only.


Spell selection is an area where opinions differ, and there isn't a "best" choice.
Personally, I think sleep is a more useful first level attacking spell as it affects more opponents (and a solitary 1d4+1 magic missile isn't very impressive).

I used starting funds to buy a single spell scroll and a potion of cure light wounds, that scroll by the way was sleep and I designed my character’s mentor explaining he had scribed the scroll so it had a higher saving throw DC still only effected 2 goblins though (bad roll).
My original intention was to cover up the restriction on spells known, but that was before I discovered he believed Sorcerors were dependent on Wizards for their spells since Sorcerors aren't normally inclined to take item creation feats...
My cleric/sorceror however picked up Scribe Scroll and Brew Ingestibles from Bastion Press's Alchemists' & Herbalists only to hav e the dm declare it only counted as brew potion even though he agreed to my feat selection in the first place (Brew Ingestibles as long as it doesn't provide hp or save bonus has a reduced costs along with a couple of different ways of brewing to reduce cost all of which he ignored because he couldn't be bother to read the copied information with my character sheet)

I also think mage armour is a better defensive spell than shield, as its longer duration means you can cast it in advance, rather than having to wait until combat is imminent. (Also, if you have a monk in the party, consider casting it on them as well - it will give you a friend for life.)

I later bought 2 of those and cast both on the Monk, along with a Protection from Evil scroll, would like to buy more but would really like to mult-class as both Cleric and Wizard so I can get the feat and the spells and not be bound to the material component problem.

As a halfling, presumably your AC is pretty good anyway, so you might have foregone a defensive spell completely in order to have two offensive spells, such as sleep and magic missile.

She has a Dex of 16 and I went for Shield because it was a 3.0 game and a +7 to AC and +3 to Reflex saves is a nice modifier. Of course Mage Armour was on the list once I could get Eshew Material so Id din't have to rip suits of leather or hide to pieces.

I wouldn't bother with identify; much better to have another utility spell or effect spell - something

I chose it because she was the only arcane spellcaster and spending 125gp+ per casting of this spell since any npc worth their salt would want their money back and a scroll would only effect one item. In case you're wondering we found a big gold raft that was apparently unbreakable and unsinkable... how do I know that? Because I used up an identify spell at 3rd level and he refused to reveal anything other than its basic function even though a Wondrous Item with a permanent form of Stoneskin and Water Walk is hardly call to hide its nature from even an Identify spell. Had the game continued I planned on casting an Extended Detect Magic and make him admit what spells were present even if I had to cast it several times to locate all of its abilities. Somehow I suspect it was going to be stolen but thats just a suspicion for now.

Colour spray is a good area zap spell which remains potent into the future, for instance. Truestrike is a spell you can cast over and over again without it getting tired, unseen servant can do all kinds of useful little tasks and has a long duration...

Maybe but my character was steering away from material components.

Regarding feats - I agree that toughness is pretty pointless, and would recommend against it. That 3hp buffer isn't much if you get attacked by something at this level. I do think that there are metamagic feats that are worth taking straight away though - not extend spell, since it is so limited, but silent spell and/or still spell are great spells to be able to have at low level because they come up sometimes (like when you cast a silent ghost sound in order to distract someone without giving away your own position by the sound of your casting)

Silent and Still spell are nice but until I really need them, I don't think its wise to let people know I can cast spells without gestruing or speaking, but they are both on that restricted list of bonus feats I mentioned earlier.

Now, for the spell selection:
I always liked prestidigitation - one of the most useful level 0 spells I think. Forget read magic - either your DM reconsiders the part about sorcerers needing scrolls or you can forget sorcerers anyway.

I agree but went for Read Magic instead after being told of a sorceror's dependency.

Magic missile and shield are nice ones. Depending on what you want form it, you might want to exchange Shield for Mage Armour. It really depends on what you want to do with it. Mage armour lasts longer, but armour bonuses are easier to come buy with magic items, and the Shield takes care of magic missiles. Either one can work well, though.

Can't exchange spells under 3.0 but planned to go for both once I could get Eshew Material.

Identify is wasted I'd say, especially for a sorcerer and his limited spell selection. I second the colour spray idea. Charm person can also be useful to make friends.

I only went for it since I'm inclined to be honest, but some aren't and any dm worth his alt could stuff their players by making them pay for identify spells to be cast at a one for one basis. In case you've overlooked this the material component for an identify spell is a bottle of fine wine, an owl feather and a 100gp pearl, I'd like to see you buy a Scroll of Identify that didn't cost at least 125gp though...

If you're a sorcerer, hire an NPC to cast Identify. You need the slot.
And if that sorceror decides to walk off with a valuable magical item after all you're assuming they legitimate since if one person goes to them whats to stop them selling it off to someone else after persuading them its not worth a lot but he/she can find someone to buy it if they're interested?

I would go with Spell Focus instead of Toughness.

I'd agree except I had planned to multi-class initially before fidning myself the only arcaen spellcaster.

There's a good thread over at the Giant in the Playground boards about making an oober wizard. A lot of it is applicable to sorcerers, too. Goodman Games' Power-Gamers Guide to Mages is also quite good and you can't help but make a robust sorcerer reading it.

Got it, found it a little limited since there are far more archetypes than whats listed.

If you run a sorcerer you need to ask the DM a couple questions about magic item availability (i.e. are there magic shops with 'cheap' items available?):
Potions, Scrolls, Wands

He'd said there would be restrictions since he didn't like how available items were in the Faerun campaign. I'd planned around this by revealing my character's patron deity of Maia was the Halfling name for Ehlonna and I was using the Quintessential Halfling rules for clans so I could claim I could make contact with someone from home to purchase scrolls if they got hard to obtain but apparently he has no problem with scrolls and potions but have yet to find one that sells wands though.

If you're going to play a sorcerer just to toss around magic missile and other lame offensive spells, I'd recommend playing a warlock from the complete arcane instead. They're better and cooler.

Its a 3.0 game and Warlocks are 3.5 personally I think they're rather silly since any other class that casts darkness can't see through yet they allow Warlocks to be able to do so, did anyone bother to read up on what came before?

 

[delericho]

Yes that’s pretty much what I thought but up to that point there had been only 3 sorcerors’ run at that club.

Seriously, I recommend retiring the character and starting again. That restriction is just evil.

The first was when my cleric was aged 60 years by means of 2nd edition rules in a 3.0 game although the charcter was originally 2nd editon before being converted over.
The 2nd was run by a new player whose charcter was blown up after levitating down a pit filled with positive energy and the dm almost killed off my cleric/sorceror as well after first stating you had to gain a significant amount of extra hp before it happened and then tried to do it when my character went 1hp over.
This halfling is the third.

Okay, starting to get a bit worried about this DM now...

Originally the choice was between Enlarge spell, Energy Substitution and Extend spell since I was trying to run my character without a dependency on material spell components and hoped to pick up Eschew Material either at 6th level or having got the dm to let me use a variant rule for Summon Familiar from the Book of Familiars wher it gave me a bonus feat from a limited list at 3rd, 9th and 15th level to see if he'd allow me to swap the lot for a single bonus feat.

Energy Substitution would probably have been a better choice. In general, Metamagic feats are more useful for high-level casters than low. However, since you mention it below, why didn't you take Eschew Materials?

My experience is that its not the first person to act who wins but the last one standing and after having my cleric/sorceror avoid a 2nd edition rules flame strike scroll in a 3.0 game because he was casting spells before moving and the dm running that game declared you could only make a 5' move if you did cast before moving something that I believe only applies to metamagic only.

Okay, remember I said I was worried about that DM?

Well, firstly, mixing editions is a really bad idea. What was 'balanced' in 2nd Edition just isn't under 3.x, and vice versa. Heck, even mixing 3.0 and 3.5 can have unexpected consequences. So, that 2nd Ed Flame Strike is a red warning sign, for me.

As for the thing about the 5-foot step, both you and your DM need to read (or reread) the Combat chapter of the PHB, which explains allowed actions at length. The short version is as follows:

Each round, a character can either take a full-round action OR a standard action and a move-equivalent action OR two move-equivalent actions. Additionally, the character can take an arbitrary number of free actions, with some restrictions.

Casting a spell is usually a standard action (but, see the casting time of the particular spell).

Moving is a move-equivalent action (surprise!).

Taking a 5-foot step is a free action, except that you can only take 1 in a round AND you can't take a 5-foot step in a round you have also moved (as distinct from taking a move-equivalent action... the terminology here is a bit confused).

So, you were probably right, depending on the spell cast.

Now, about metamagic-ed spells: A prepared spell cast with a metamagic feat has the same casting time as a normal spell of the same name, unless of course the spell is Quickened. A spontaneous spell with a metamagic feat has a longer caster time than normal (so, most such spells take full-round actions to cast). So, Sorcerers and Bards suffer the longer casting time, as do Clerics and 3.5 Druids casting their spontaneous Cure/Inflict and Summon spells. Wizards, Paladins, Rangers, and Clerics and Druids casting any other spells do not suffer the longer casting time. (One consequence of this is that Sorcerers and Bards can't use the Quicken Spell feat.)

I later bought 2 of those and cast both on the Monk, along with a Protection from Evil scroll, would like to buy more but would really like to mult-class as both Cleric and Wizard so I can get the feat and the spells and not be bound to the material component problem.

What material component problem? Either take the Eschew Materials feat or, failing that, buy a Spell Component Pouch. It's in the PHB, costs 5 gp, and essentially solves that problem in most cases (and the ones that wouldn't be covered aren't helped by EM).

She has a Dex of 16 and I went for Shield because it was a 3.0 game and a +7 to AC and +3 to Reflex saves is a nice modifier. Of course Mage Armour was on the list once I could get Eshew Material so Id din't have to rip suits of leather or hide to pieces.

yes, in 3.0 Shield is a very nice spell. The mage armour components are included in the SPC, though.

In case you're wondering we found a big gold raft that was apparently unbreakable and unsinkable... how do I know that? Because I used up an identify spell at 3rd level and he refused to reveal anything other than its basic function even though a Wondrous Item with a permanent form of Stoneskin and Water Walk is hardly call to hide its nature from even an Identify spell. Had the game continued I planned on casting an Extended Detect Magic and make him admit what spells were present even if I had to cast it several times to locate all of its abilities. Somehow I suspect it was going to be stolen but thats just a suspicion for now.

Um, I thought the 3.0 Identify only gave the basic function of the item? Don't you need Analyze Dweomer (or somesuch) to get the full story?

That was one of the changes between 3.0 and 3.5 - the 3.5 Identify gives all powers of a single item, instead of a single power of each of many items.

Oh, and I suspect your Extended Detect Magic wouldn't help, either.

Magic missile and shield are nice ones. Depending on what you want form it, you might want to exchange Shield for Mage Armour. It really depends on what you want to do with it. Mage armour lasts longer, but armour bonuses are easier to come buy with magic items, and the Shield takes care of magic missiles. Either one can work well, though.

Can't exchange spells under 3.0 but planned to go for both once I could get Eshew Material.

I'm guessing, but I don't think that's what he meant.

I only went for it since I'm inclined to be honest, but some aren't and any dm worth his alt could stuff their players by making them pay for identify spells to be cast at a one for one basis. In case you've overlooked this the material component for an identify spell is a bottle of fine wine, an owl feather and a 100gp pearl, I'd like to see you buy a Scroll of Identify that didn't cost at least 125gp though...

DMs have no business setting out to 'stuff their players'. That aside, all you'd be losing is 25 gp per casting, which might be worth the expense. Bear in mind, you'll only ever know a few dozen spells, ever, so they really have to count. And this is even more true in 3.0 than 3.5, where you can't swap out spells.

He'd said there would be restrictions since he didn't like how available items were in the Faerun campaign.

They're available per the standard assumption in the DMG, unless the DM wants to change that. Therefore, each settlement has a 'GP limit' determining what can be found in the settlement. In general, anything you want to buy with a value less than or equal to that gp limit should be available reasonably easily. Therefore, it should be quite easy to find wands of most 1st level spells in most small towns.

To be honest, I most certainly would not play a sorcerer under this DM, and I might well simply not play under this DM at all. If your posts have been an accurate sample of the campaigns, I suspect I would have no fun in such a game. I'm just saying...

Its a 3.0 game and Warlocks are 3.5 personally I think they're rather silly since any other class that casts darkness can't see through yet they allow Warlocks to be able to do so, did anyone bother to read up on what came before?

That's your argument against Warlocks? That they can see through their own magical darkness? Odd.