Sorcerrors & Metamagic

[Ravellion]

The first post said "one full round". That is not the case: it's a full round action. What this means that you only have a 5ft step left after casting your metamagiced spell.

Anyway, I think Metamagic is very appropiate for sorcerers: "let's see if I can give this spell a little more oomph!" or *mmm, let's try if I can harness the magical energies without using any gestures...* BOOOOOM! "woohoo, I could!"

Rav

 

[kreynolds]

I'm actually willing to make a compromise here. I'll let sorcerers use metamagic just like normal (no extended casting time for spontaneous use), but I'll then reduce the spell scribing costs for wizards by 80% and allow them to even cast their spells directly from their spellbooks as a full-round spell (like casting a summon spell). I think that's fair.

 

[Ravellion]

I'm actually willing to make a compromise here. I'll let sorcerers use metamagic just like normal (no extended casting time for spontaneous use), but I'll then reduce the spell scribing costs for wizards by 80% and allow them to even cast their spells directly from their spellbooks as a full-round spell (like casting a summon spell). I think that's fair.

It might be fair... how hard is it to sunder a book with a greatsword ?

Rav

 

[DreamChaser]

I have always thought of sorcerers as using something that sits between spells and spell like abilities. for balance reasons, obviously they need to be spells but still it is innate, "raw" magic.

Wizards on the other hand learn to use something (be it scientific principle or ancient runes) to harness a force that is foreign to them.

Metamagic feats are entirely different things for these two classes.

Lets say that wizards scribe runic sentences to prepare their spells. For them a metamagic feat would be akin to a diacritic mark (like the accents in résumé) that change the "meaning" of the spell sentence ever so slightly. Without the diacritics, résumé would just tell us to start again (resume).

Now lets say that sorcerers are born with a link to one of the elemental planes. They learn to focus the energy that they can channel forth in different ways (spells). The training is intense so they can only learn a limited number. Every so often a sorcerer might learn, along with her spells, a technique to manipulate the way that she channels, allowing her to pull more energy at once, channel without speaking to focus her thoughts, or even channel instantaneously.

The word "metamagic" sounds all academic and sciency but really they could easily be called "mystic form feats" or "arcane secret feats"

Now what I really don't get is how to justify metamagic feats on divine spells. What mortal is going to inform their deity that praying outloud for their spell is just a waste of time?

"You don't want to make the divine gestures this time? Looks like it's time for deific wrath against whiny cleric."

Just another thought to stir the pot.
-DC

 

[Hygric]

I have always felt that metamagic feats were best used by sorcerers to give them some much needed flexibility.

Need a more powerful blow-stuff up spell? The wizard can just learn a cone of cold. A sorcerer could learn a cone of cold, but just how many of his spells would end up being blow-stuff-up spells? Leaves little room for general purpose spells etc and your sorcerers will end up being no more than an artillery piece. Better IMHO for the sorc to be able to empower a fireball or something.

Conversley, I feel that item creation is more the realm of the wizard than the sorcerer.

Oh, and as for sorcerers really begining to study the nature of magic, isn't that what a high spellcraft and knowledge: arcana would be for?

 

[wolff96]

Actually, I go the other way with the explanation in my world.

(Note that I use the Monte Cook Sorcerer, so there are no material components for a sorcerer.)

Sorcerers have an innate connection to magic. They don't study spells or anything along those lines... they just do magic. Wizardry, on the other hand, is the study of sorcerer-type magic for those without an innate connection.

Arcane magic isn't a science. But by using certain reagents, studying how sorcerers do spells, and practicing fancy words and gestures, a wizard can conjure forth the same powers that a sorcerer uses by force of will.

Thus, IMC, sorcerers are the masters of metamagic. A wizard doesn't know how to change a spell to make it work with metamagic. But sorcerers can reshape and alter their spells all the time.

-----------------------------

Flavor aside: I gave the sorcerers three bonus feats (5, 10, and 15) that can only be used for metamagic. I also made a "Metamagician" PrC only for use by sorcerers.

Wizards still get their bonus feats and scribing costs are cut in half. Scribing time is also reduced a bit. But the largest difference is that a wizard must "create" a metamagic version of a spell. They can't take a metamagic feat.

So far, we have one wizard and one sorcerer in the party. It's worked out quite well so far. (12th level currently)

 

[MerakSpielman]

So, if you think wizards and sorcereres should both be able to use metamagic, can a multi-class wiz/soc take a metamagic feat once and apply it to both their wizard and sorcerer spells? Or would they have to take the feat twice, applying it to a different class each time?

 

[Gez]

Metamagic just screams "sorcerer" to me. The sorcerer is the one who craft his spells, rather than recite them. He can improvise them on the fly and alter them.

Actually, I'd have liked if they gave the sorcerers bonus metamagic feats at level 5, 10, 15 and 20, like the wizard. Also, they should have given them Eschew Material at 1st level, the same way the wizards get Scribe Scroll (but eschew material would have to be a general feat, like the Summon Mastery feat; not a metamagic feat ! Bad idea !). And some more spell-known. Their little number of spell-known make them too limited.

Wizards, on the other hand, are the people who learn formulae and repeat them, the more exactly possible, because a slight error can create a disaster. Toying with metamagic is a dangerous proposal for them.

In other word, I agree with Ryan Wickett on this point.

I also agree metamagic feats are a bit underpowered, frequently. Most of time, a 3rd-level spell is more powerful than a 0-, 1st-, or 2nd-level spell metamagicked to 3rd. An exception is the infamous Persistent Spell used with buffing spells (or with nifty like the Moonblade spell, IIRC it has a fixed range of 0 feet so you can persistent it).

I prefer the Lace Spell eldritch feats from Monte Cook's Books of EM, but they have harsh prerequisite for sorcerers (int 17+ ?). A nice effect, smaller in scale than metamagic feats, but without a boring cost associated.

 

[Spatzimaus]

If only one of the two classes had metamagic, I'd have to go with Sorcerer. A Wizard learns an exact set of actions needed to trigger a magical effect, which doesn't leave a lot of room for experimentation, but a Sorcerer KNOWS magic. He should be able to do far more with one spell than a Wizard can, since he should inherently know how to alter it.

If anything, I'd say have Wizard bonus feats only be used for item creation and Sorcerers get corresponding bonus Feats to be used for metamagic. At first level they'd get Eschew Materials, but only if you allow the house rule that Sorcerers can use their known slots for metamagicked spells to get around the increased casting time. That way, every spell they know has it built in. Convenient, huh?

But then they're too similar. I've been trying to come up with some way to combine the classes, and here's what I've got so far:

MAGE (Mag) (well, actually, I commonly call them Sorcerers, but I wanted to get back to the old days)
> Spell list is Sorcerer's, including any level changes you'd make by using the alt.Sorcerer list, i.e., Shield at 2, Haste at 4, Mass Haste at 7, etc.
> Spells are spontaneously cast like a Sorcerer, including the increased casting time for metamagic
> Spells/Day and Spells Known are as a Sorcerer.
> Skill list is Sorcerer, plus pick two class skills from the following list: Knowledge (any one), Speak Language, or any of the CHA-based non-exclusive skills (Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, etc.)
> Bonus Feats: Eschew Materials at 1, any other metamagic Feats at 5, 10, 15, and 20
> Save DC is set by CHA (the ability to force your will on other people)
> Bonus spells are determined by INT and are added to spells KNOWN, not spells/day. Only permanent INT (innate, inherent) helps for this; a Headband of Intellect doesn't give you extra spells.
> Need INT of 10+spell level to know a spell. Headband works fine for this.
> Need CHA of 10+spell level to CAST a spell (this one might get removed)
> If they want to get around the metamagic time, they can take the Prepare Spell feat to act like a PHB Wizard.
> This is the magic of Chaos, so no Lawful characters can take the class. (This ties it to Bards better) Likewise, Psionics is the magic of Order, so no Chaotic types can take Psion.
> Gnomes have this as their new favored class; the three free cantrips are simply added to their spells known and don't count against the maximum (and non-Sorcerers get one use per day of each)
> Elves have Psion as their favored class.

Making them be 2-stat casters instead of 1-stat makes a huge difference in power, ESPECIALLY when those two stats are INT and CHA.

Anyway, it's just a concept, any comments?

 

[wolff96]

> Skill list is Sorcerer, plus pick two class skills from the following list: Knowledge (any one), Speak Language, or any of the CHA-based non-exclusive skills (Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, etc.)

I really like the "choose your skills" idea. You can make either a scholar-type (with Speak Languages and Knowledge skills) or a more worldly type.

> Save DC is set by CHA (the ability to force your will on other people)
> Bonus spells are determined by INT and are added to spells KNOWN, not spells/day. Only permanent INT (innate, inherent) helps for this; a Headband of Intellect doesn't give you extra spells.
> Need INT of 10+spell level to know a spell. Headband works fine for this.
> Need CHA of 10+spell level to CAST a spell (this one might get removed)

I think you should add one of the two stats to spells per day. If it were me, I would remove the "CHA of 10+Spell level to cast" limitation -- the INT limit is bad enough -- and add Cha to spells per day using the standard table for bonus spells per day.

Using that, your spells known and what the highest spell you can cast are set by intelligence. Then your save DCs and how many spells you can squeeze out per day are controlled by how powerful your personality is.

Just my thoughts off the top of my head. Note that your magus class will make these players a LOT weaker in combat -- it would have to be a very high point-buy to get high CHA, INT, and be able to survive in combat.