Sorry - I think the point was missed...

Andre said:
So, essentially, I'm complaining that the designers of 3.x didn't go far enough?

Maybe! :D It's certainly a step in the right direction.

And, as you allude to, "14 million bonus types is too much. 1 is certainly too small. 16's what we got. Is 15 better? What about 17?"

Those are very hard questions to answer exactly, I'd imagine.
 

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RyanD

Adventurer
Ourph said:
you directly contradict yourself a few sentences later by writing....

Don't confuse a statement of generalities (some rules lite games are more fun for some players) with an observation of specific application (when we studied the problem we found that the "rules density" of a game was not the primary influence on game fun in the groups we studied).

Those statements can be both true. Perhaps the number of "perfect match" groups is so small as a percentage of the total that we just didn't get one in our study. Or maybe we just gut unlucky and missed a big population of such groups due to some flaw in the way we recruited test subjects. The generality and the specific application are not inconsistent with each other.

I think it's also a bad assumption to draw the conclusion that [...] rules-lite games aren't compatible with those things on an individual group basis.

I totally agree. That would be a bad assumption. And it does not jibe with my personal (anecdotal rather than structured) observational experience. So I'm not making that assertion.

My question to you Ryan is, did your "research" control for this type of variable? If not, I don't believe the observations are really all that informative.

My memory is that most of the groups played games they self-selected. We actively solicited via some local Seattle game stores and conventions for people playing certain games to ensure those games would be a part of the study. We did some "random group" testing (where the play group was ad hoc and assembled just before the test play session, with a mix of skill levels), but only with a handful of games for direct competitive analysis.
 

John Morrow

First Post
RyanD said:
We know that certain GMs consistently run games that are "more fun" than average. Studying those GMs and trying to reduce what they do to a reproducible system that could be used by others is a potentially fruitful line of research.

I'd focus on style compatibility, the GM's ability to adapt to unexpected events, and the social skills of the participants.

RyanD said:
Learning how to identify what kind of person each player in a group is, and ensuring that elements of each game session appeal to each player's needs is likely to make the game "more fun" overall.

There are two schools of thought on this subject. The first is to create games that cater to a particular style at the expense of the others and filter the group so they all share a common style or styles. The second (which I think you chose for 3e and Robin Laws tackles in Robin's Laws) is to try to help GMs create games that can keep players with different styles happy.

RyanD said:
What I do not think is helpful is sustaining the conventional wisdom that says "rules lite games are more fun to play". This statement arises from a chain of logical reasoning: Rules make games complex. The more complex a game is, the harder it will be to play. Therefore, reducing the number of rules should make a game easier to play. The easier a game is to play, the more fun the game becomes. Thus, rules lite games are more fun.

I think there are some other factors in play. I think there is a style issue, a control issue, and a "training wheels" issue at play here.

First, rule-light play fits some styles of play better than others. This hobby has two gatekeeper systems -- D&D and, to a lesser degree, White Wolf games. To a certain degree, this gatekeeper effect naturally excludes certain styles that are poor fits for those systems (or the groups that most commonly play them) but some people who are poor fits for D&D stick with the hobby because they see the potential in it. Those people are never really happy with D&D and they want something different and (perhaps correctly) feel that the hobby could attract more people if there were a rule-light entry vector. So a lot of the people trying to make a better mouse trap are the people who don't like D&D because the people who do like D&D don't need a better mousetrap. But since everyone seems to have trouble understanding other play styles, they think their alternative should be better for everyone, when it really isn't.

Second, I think are a certain number of players and GMs (often those who think of RPGs more as stories) who know how things should be resolved and even know how things should turn out. For these people, the rules and dice fight them because, at best, they will confirm what they already think should happen and, at worst, will tell them something they think is wrong. For these people, a rule-light or diceless system feels like liberation because they no longer have to fight a system or dice that gives them the wrong results. Things like hero points and fudge points are another manifestation of this preference.

Third, the rules often teach people how a game should work but once people know how a game should work intuitively, they don't really need the rules anymore. They get in the way the same way training wheels start to get in the way once you learn how to ride a bicycle and won't fall anymore. Further, they spend so much time dealing with how much the training wheels bothered them once they learned how to ride that they forget that they needed them at first and that other beginners might need them, too. So rather than advocating systems that are appropriate for beginners, they suggest beginners start with games that really work better for people who know what they are doing. It's like a person who learns how to ride a bicycle feeling just fine after taking the training wheels off and then suggesting that all beginners start without training wheels.
 

Akrasia

Procrastinator
RyanD said:
.... The "rules lite" design approaches I am familiar with (and my RPG library includes well over 100 different game systems) almost all rely on GM fiat as the fallback position for covering aspects of play that the game doesn't have a rule for.

Well, there certainly are *some* 'rules light' systems that are not rendered 'light' simply by relying on GM fiat. Some actually *increase* the players' role in determining the course of the adventure -- i.e., they give the players a way to 'balance' the decisions of the GM.

For example, in Cinematic Unisystem (Buffy/Angel), players can influence the course of the plot/adventure by spending drama points, and they can alter what happened to their PC's -- whether "by the rules" of by GM/director decision -- by spending such points.

RyanD said:
...That empowers GMs tremendously.

For some GMs, I'm sure that's a subconscious attraction. (I doubt very many people overtly think: "I play Game X because when I run Game X the players have to give in to my whims.") But even subconsciously, I suspect it's a powerful motivating force for choosing a rules lite system.

IME, there are two 'pragmatic' reasons why 'rules light' games appeal to some gamers:

(1.) Less prep time; and
(2.) Faster pace of adventures.

These features are especially appealling to gamers with busy schedules.

Moreover, IME, a successful 'rules light' game requires a certain amount of maturity and trust among the players. Consequently, if the GM in question is running a 'rules light' game simply in order to lord power over the players, it is unlikely that that game will last very long, since the experience is likely to be quite miserable.

But since your claim concerned only "some GMs", it obviously does not contradict my own experiences (and those of people I know).
 

JohnSnow

Hero
Ryan,

I have to say that to me as a gamer, a businessman, and a marketing MBA, this is all incredibly fascinating.

Obviously, Peter's notions of what constituted "fun" were highly influential in the design of 3e. Personally, I think it's also safe to say thatGary Gygax's notions of what constituted "fun" were hugely influential on the earliest editions of the game. I'm not sure whose notions of "fun" guided 2nd Edition. I've seen elements of that in d20 Modern as well - the designers' personal idea of "fun" guided the game.

Do you think enough has been done to take players' notions of what constitutes "fun" into account? Obviously, to me, that's largely the point of playtesting, and speaks to how important playtesting is to game design, especially when considering new rules. Basically, it seems to me that playtesting is a form of in-depth market research.

RyanD said:
My gut instinct is that you are right in general that there are too many kinds of modifiers. I suspect that some of the modifier proliferation is directly linked to power inflation (how can I get some more stackable bonuses on this stat...) and controlling modifier bloat would also reign in power inflation.

I think everyone's probably right that maybe 3e didn't go far enough in "simplifying itself" in this regard. I think you'd get an "AMEN!" from all but the most munchkin gamers for this one. More understandable rules combined with less power inflation? (especially if you still involves increasing complexity). Sign me up.

RyanD said:
I tend to believe that the most staunch defenders of "rules lite" design philosophies are those people who either are exceptionally good at on the fly game design, or those who often play with others who are.

The "rules lite" design approaches I am familiar with (and my RPG library includes well over 100 different game systems) almost all rely on GM fiat as the fallback position for covering aspects of play that the game doesn't have a rule for. That empowers GMs tremendously.

Personally, I think one of the attractions of Castles & Crusades is that it is very close to D&D. The fallback position of C&C, therefore, is defaulting back to the 3e ruleset. In many cases, I think this ruleset has been internalized by the DM in question to such a degree that he's not even aware of defaulting back to it. The early adopters of C&C are certainly primarily people who have played 3e, so how well it will spread is an interesting question.

RyanD said:
There are so many more valuable things that could be sold to players and GMs beyond new rules that I get greatly irritated by how many "rulebooks" I see in the marketplace.

What sorts of valuable things are you talking about? I'm very intrigued. I can certainly see gaming aids as one example (Fiery Dragon's Battle Box comes to mind).
 
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EricNoah

Adventurer
JohnSnow said:
What sorts of valuable things are you talking about? I'm very intrigued. I can certainly see gaming aids as one example (Fiery Dragon's Battle Box comes to mind).

*perks up* This interests me too. He might be talking about "hardware" (minis, dice, counters). He might be talking about something like a computer program that lets players build highly detailed and highly customizable "paper dolls" of their characters (or 3-D "paper dolls"). Software that lets DMs and players build strongholds according to rules (how much does this wall cost, etc.).

(This all goes back to questions I remember from years ago when we were trying to brainstorm all of the things players and DMs like to do and come up with products to match those activities. "Players like to visualize their characters -- presto, let's make a way to let them do that." etc.)
 

ColonelHardisson

What? Me Worry?
Gentlegamer said:
Or, he wishes to retract his statement we were all responding to since it is obvious to all that it is absurd.

RyanD is on a quest to "debunk" the idea that "less rules" is "more fun."

Yeah, but that doesn't equate to him saying "less rules" is "less fun." You're reading that into what he said.
 

JohnSnow

Hero
Akrasia said:
IME, there are two 'pragmatic' reasons why 'rules light' games appeal to some gamers:

(1.) Less prep time; and
(2.) Faster pace of adventures.

These features are especially appealling to gamers with busy schedules.

Moreover, IME, a successful 'rules light' game requires a certain amount of maturity and trust among the players. Consequently, if the GM in question is running a 'rules light' game simply in order to lord power over the players, it is unlikely that that game will last very long, since the experience is likely to be quite miserable.

Actually, the first only applies to GMs, not all gamers, so Ryan is, to a great degree, correct. Rules-light systems empower GMs tremendously. One aspect of that empowerment is making the GM's prep work easier.

He didn't say anything about the DM wanting to "lord power over the players." He said there's a subconscious attraction to a system where you have power. I think that's fair - most people with power like having more.

And I just found the quote that I think will sum up our differences on C&C vs. D&D -

RyanD said:
A lot of data suggests that one of the things many RPG players are seeking is "complexity that increases over time". That is, part of the fun-factor in the RPG concept is related to mastery of a complex topic. Take away the complexity, and for many people, you take away the fun.

Color me one of those people. :cool:

So, how does one balance "complexity that increases over time" with the utterly understandable goal of GMs to not have to devote a second job to session prep?

Worth some thought, I would think.
 

tonym

First Post
We think that there is data to support the idea that people who enjoy being GM/DMs tend to cluster into the Storyteller segment. Interestingly, based on our own internal profiling of the staff, there's some data to support the idea that good game designers tend to cluster into the "Thinker" segment. In other words, good DMs don't make the best game designers, and vice versa. As with all things though, there will be exceptions and special cases.

Ryan, I followed your link to the interesting "Breakdown of RPG Players" essay, from which I quoted the above passage about DMs and Game Designers.

I am now wondering about something. If a person is a good DM, mediocre on-the-fly game designer, and appears to sit in the Storyteller quadrant of that matrix, is there a higher probability that his players would have more fun playing with a rules-heavy system that protects them from mediocre on-the-fly rules? In other words, are the rules-related benefits of a rules-heavy RPG greater than the negatives incurred from placing a Storyteller DM into a realm where he cannot control the narrative as easily?

Tony M
 


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