"Speaker in Dreams" is one of the twinkiest adventures ever written

Felon said:

No really "wrong" so much as "misguided". You interpreted the word "brainless" as being some sort of vicious indictment.

Oh, that's all right then. I just thought you were being brainless.

My mistake. :)

I don't recall mentioning any specific games (because I didn't), but video games are, on the whole, just brain candy that delivers a quick rush of endorphins.

Tut. Clearly you have much to learn.

Not too much emphasis on long-lasting intellectual or emotional impact. I haven't played Planescape, but Baldur's Gate certainly qualifies.

Ah, so not only are you brainless, but since you criticise something you haven't played, you're ignorant as well. Not that that's meant as a vicious indictment at all. :)

It was fun, but forgettable. If I want something heady, I'll go read Bloodstone or Darkness Weaves for the 432nd time.

So why don't you do that, as opposed to wasting your time on trifling little pastimes like, oh, Dungeons and Dragons?

Or better yet, one of those Frank Herbert novels that I've never gotten around to finishing.

You seem under the misapprehension that Frank Herbert is heady. Not that you're "wrong", of course, just "misguided".

Hey, I didn't know you were a spelling troll as well. Versatile fellow! Can you make sure that I spelled "endorphins" correctly? TIA!

Far be it from me to cast pearls before swine.

Not that I'm calling you swine at all, since that would constitute a vicious indictment. :) HTH!
 

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King_Stannis said:
On the contrary, if you and your players dig this style - I think the adventure could be fit into Ptolus with little or no fuss.

Come to think of it, in Monte Cook's Banewarrens [SPOILER ALERT] there's a mind flayer/ogre mage monster team as well, so you could use them as recurring villains. The Banewarrens is for levels 6-10, so you could probably run it consecutively with SiD.

I know Monte's view on this stuff is "why hide magic, it exists and should be used". In essence, and in the words of my good friend Teflon Billy, "magic has all the wonder of indoor plumbing". Having Imps delivering messages is a perfect example. You might think that it is somehow more faithful and logical than I do. But while having an Imp delivering messages may have an internal logic to it, there is still no denying the fact that it in some way lessens the "awe factor", after a while.

Agreed. As inexcusably awful as the D&D movie was, if you think about it, it's a pretty big challenge to make a movie that would portray D&D accurately without looking ridiculous in its current OTT approach to fantasy. Not even so much for the message-bearing familiars and golem bodyguards--the audience might be able to enjoy that as the Tatooine canteen from Star Wars on a larger scale--but suspension-of-disbelief goes bye-bye when they cut to a scene of a D&D version of a hospus where priests of Pelor raise the dead (for a modest fee, of course :) )

It's all a matter of taste - i seriously doubt my players would take seriously a game where wizards leisurely fly down the street on a magic carpet while Umber Hulks dig for gold under some agreement with the crown. But then again, that's just them. YMMV.

Ultimately, I hope D&D evolves into more of a meta-system, with just as much material floating around for a traditional heroic fantasy campaign as there is for Monte Cook's "spellpunk" flavor of fantasy. After all, if we have a D20 Modern system coming, why not a D20 Fantasy? Your group gets the level of fantasy that they want.

There are quite a few alternate systems out there right now that could serve the cause (alternate combat systems that use VP/WP, alternate magic systems where spells are powerful but come at a cost, etc) it's just a matter of seeing which material emerges as the predominant "core" system. I actually had some hope that Sovereign Stone d20 would do the trick, but sadly that's not the case.
 
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King_Stannis said:
good magic system, though.

The magic system's use of "casting time" was very much what I was looking for. I always thought that breaking out the heavy artillery should be a tricky business.

The problem that I found with that system, though, is that the caster doesn't get anything out of it. If there's a big build-up, there should be a big payoff. Introducing this system will just seem to be a shaft for a lot of players. If playing MMORPG's has taught gamers anything, it's that you should never give the players a patch with nothing but nerfs.

I don't own the book though, just leafed through it and read ENworld the reviews, so perhaps I'm overlooking something? For instance, is adding a metamagic component relatively painless? If that fireball that took 3 rounds to cast comes out empowered and enlarged, my interest in that magic system will be rekindled.
 
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Are telling me that You can't make things seem scary, awe-inspiring, and fearful, with this module? I sure can, I like the module. Hell, I took the same idea and created a similar aspect, of some worshipers of an Evil god attempting to overthrow a city, while sacrificing clerics, building up to a summoning of a handmaiden to their goddess. To accomplish this, they poisoned the groundwater, spreading disease through their food source, getting them to loose faith in the patron god of the city, and inflict a serious sickness to the guards of the city, let alone other stuff.

Was it just a mixmash of powerful things because I had clerics and necromancers, a Rakshasa, demons, and a poison golem? No. My players were pulling their hair out because they didn't know what to do, the clock was ticking, and they were scared out of their willies. When an excaping priestess summoned some fiendish sharks into the water her bodyguard was standing on, because he was surrendering to the party, and when she had them tear him limb from limb, they felt very little.

So, the same can't be done with monsters? Come ON. Vampires, Illithids, Liches, Dragons, these are <i>intelligent</i> beings, able to manipulate things from behind the shadows. If all your monsters are are big scary things out THERE, away from humans, where they're waiting for people to just stumble on them and stab them, where's the awe?

Do these monsters not have the brain capacity to go 'Hey! I have these special powers that dominate/trick/manipulate these humans, and control them for my own desires' then that's a problem. This is what Illithids are *supposed* to do, and *not* get in Melee.

I see nothing wrong with having the Illithid there, or his bodyguard. The wererats should be there, since well, they're rats, and it's a city. It's been hand and hand since they were created. Gargoyles? Seems like a pretty good place, seeing as there are ACTUAL GARGOYLES in the architecture of the city, more defenseless people they can kill (Since there are very few adventurers in relation to the population, right?). The demons, why not? Atleast, some Smart demons like a Succubi, Osyluth, or such, nothing like a pure bruiser. These are *smart* demons.

The portal to hell and the fiendish dinosaurs, I'll give you. That was sort've off, but still.

With the right workings, you can have a sense of a Dungeon Inna City, a CoC-esque mystery, or something in between. It just depends on your group, your campaign, and You the DM.

I personally Applaud WotC on this module. As apposed to the Standing Stone which was just a stinking Pile. Look at their other stuff, like The Forge of Fury. Sans succubi and roper, it's a good module, with inter-relations between different humanoids and a dragon. Or it could be a hack-fest.

Allow me to offer another example: A small town, or village, that has a deal with an ettin. They give the ettin a sheep, or food, or a new weapon when it needs it, and the ettin protects them. Is that any Awe-inspiring? The people having a fear of anyone who would slay Their Ettin, or how the Ettin would recieve shouts of good luck, of cheers, when it faced any PCs who apposed the town? Properly described, it could be either just a monster, or a pivotal thing about this village.

In most fantasy literature, there Is Not Many monsters. They are few, far between, and holed up, basicly waiting for the hero to go in and obliterate. But in D&D, in this world, there's magic, there's monsters. This is the world coping with these things. How do we stop these monsters from eating us? Let's bargain with the ones who'll bargain, and kill the ones that're things like Grendel, while sacrifice things to the Dragon.
 
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hong

come on hong, normally your posts are either funny, inflamatory, or informative... rarely are they abusive. :(

i'm one of the rare ones out there who thought BG, BGII and Planescape boring, so boring in fact that i had to force myself to finish the first two and gave up on the last.

joe b.
*stepping up to take the pearls*
 



Bagpuss said:
Well thanks I did put some effort into adapting the adventure to my campaign, but I stopped when it got to the point, where there was more work I'd done on the module than was in the module itself.

The only reason I buy modules is to save me time planning as a DM, if I had the time to do all the work myself I would do (as I currently am doing for an AFMBE game for Halloween), but my time is limited and to make Speaker in Dreams a half decent adventure the DM has to break it down to barebones and build it back up almost from scratch.

You didn't need to do anywhere near as much work as in the other modules in the series.

I disagree with this so much, words hardly describe. Standing Stone and Nightfang Spire required more tinkering on my part. Even Forge of Fury required more tinkering. Speaker required me to think on my feet a little more, but that was about it.
 

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