spearing a ship until it sinks

[Joshua Randall]

Personally I think it would be completely awesome if the PCs rowed up to an enemy ship and hacked it apart* so that it sunk. It only takes 30 seconds -- yeah? So what? The PCs are heroes; they do over-the-top heroic stuff.

Or more likely, started hacking it apart, then got noticed by the enemies on the ship and got attacked, so they (PCs) had to keep destroying the ship while fending off the enemies.

4e is that it is not even trying to model reality. Is it realistic that you can sink a ship with a spear or punch a dungeon into rubble? No. It's not realistic. It's just awesome.

 

[interwyrm]

4e is that it is not even trying to model reality. Is it realistic that you can sink a ship with a spear or punch a dungeon into rubble? No. It's not realistic. It's just awesome.

This. 4e did away with simulationism. Monsters don't play by the same rules as players. If you want to build an encounter with the risk of a ship sinking, you can just put a timelimit. The pcs have to defeat the enemies in x rounds, or the ship sinks. Maybe combine it with a skill challenge. It's not about the rules, it's about the story.

 

[TerraDave]

Well, this thread is about the rules. And its not that awesome.

Forgetting simulation, from a game point of view, a fragile vehicle is a problem, unless it should obviously be fragile. I mean, is it really awesome for the PCs to use normal weapons and basic attacks to take out a ship? Or is it just sort of lame, given there may be actual awesome things they could do, or at least normal things. And of course, the PCs would never ever want these rules applied to their ship, though these are the rules for their ship. Their big expensive ship could be taken out by a band of kobold archers.

 

[UnknownAtThisTime]

I know this is abotu 'the rules' but I think I would invoke "Resist 10 weapon damage" or whatever the applicable number and type is. (I think I could come up with a reasonable one on the fly, and could very easily let the players know that their spears seem to be having little effect)

It IS feasible to break apart a ship with tools and weapons, and a Mordenkrad would be way more effective than a spear.

 

[Peraion Graufalke]

Kobold archers aren't a threat to a ship. Kobold archers with flaming arrows, on the other hand, are a threat. ;-)

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Personally I think it would be completely awesome if the PCs rowed up to an enemy ship and hacked it apart* so that it sunk. It only takes 30 seconds -- yeah? So what? The PCs are heroes; they do over-the-top heroic stuff.

Or more likely, started hacking it apart, then got noticed by the enemies on the ship and got attacked, so they (PCs) had to keep destroying the ship while fending off the enemies.

4e is that it is not even trying to model reality. Is it realistic that you can sink a ship with a spear or punch a dungeon into rubble? No. It's not realistic. It's just awesome.

This


On the other hand in my opinion hit points and hardness is the completely wrong way to address this problem. It should be handled using the skill challange mechainics with easier DCs for using the appropiate tools.

 

[TerraDave]

To clarify I don't want to head off discussion of alternatives...which could include:

-reintroducing hardness/resistance
-just upping the AC and HP
-dropping ship stats and using a skill challenge or a narative approach. (sheesh, ninjaed)

For the second of these, an AC of say 18 (to allow for deflection) and more like 500-800 hp (maybe with fire vulnrability) might work. Might.

For the third, it becomes very conditional. Sabotaging a ship vs a sea monster attack vs dueling ships all might need different frameworks.

 

[Dausuul]

4e is that it is not even trying to model reality. Is it realistic that you can sink a ship with a spear or punch a dungeon into rubble? No. It's not realistic. It's just awesome.

Yeah, right up until the point where the PCs start doing it with every dungeon they come to. Then it rapidly becomes dumb.

 

[Scribble]

To clarify I don't want to head off discussion of alternatives...which could include:

-reintroducing hardness/resistance

I still think you're not reading this rule correctly.


Also don't forget the part that talks about damage not necessarily meaning the object is destroyed, only no longer functional.

So in the case of your ship, the ship doesn't sink, the rigging is fouled, and the sails are full of holes, etc.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Yeah, right up until the point where the PCs start doing it with every dungeon they come to. Then it rapidly becomes dumb.

At which point it becomes and extended skill challange or the roof comes down on them.