Special attacks in full-attack actions

[Li Shenron]

IIRC, the following special attacks can be used either as any attack in a full-attack action or as a single attack action:

Disarm
Trip
Grapple
Shield Bash

While the following can only be used as a single attack action, which normally restricts them to 1/round unless you have some specal ability/condition:

Bull Rush
Feint
Sunder (recently ruled otherwise in the FAQ)
Overrun
Manyshot

(if more comes to your mind, please add!)

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I have a lot of trouble explaining my players the reasons behind the choice of making a special attack fall either in the first or second group. Balance? Realism? No way!

We cannot understand why grappling or shield bashing - which sound quite bulky to attempt - can be attempted more than once per round, while sundering or feinting - which are only slightly different than normal attacks - cannot.

As for balance, beside Manyshot which could be effectively too powerful, and maybe also beside Feint in case of very high-level multiclassed rogues (with 4 attacks he could do feint+sneak+feint+sneak), we don't know why grappling and tripping - very effective tactics - should be given more attempts.

What is your opinion?

 

[Darklone]

Game balance and personal taste of the designers.

 

[Geoff Watson]

Bull Rush and Overrun both require movement, so you couldn't do a full attack anyway.

Sunder has been FAQed.

Feint, as you said, would be too powerful for Sneak Attacks.

Manyshot is effectively taking several shots at once, and would be overpowered if you were able to get exponential* benefits.

Why do you think they should be different?

Geoff.

* - not sure if this is the right word. It's been too long since I studied mathematics. I should find a good maths book to read. Any suggestions?

 

[Destil]

* - not sure if this is the right word. It's been too long since I studied mathematics. I should find a good maths book to read. Any suggestions?

It fits pretty well, since the number of arrows is close enugh to the number of attacks you could make (rapid shot aside) that you would basicly be turning 2 attacks into 4, 3 into 9, 4 into 16 ect.

 

[Artoomis]

Given the discussion on Sunder, it was questionably worded in the first place. Sunder should perhaps be a standard action for game balance, but it's been rules otherwise in the FAQ.

A Feint is special - you ALWAYS feint in combat, but using the Bluff skill is a more dramatic feint than normal, and takes extra effort and time to set it up right. Of course, and it would be too deadly with sneak attack.

Manyshot takes too long to get ready to be just one of your many attacks.

 

[Li Shenron]

But what about Trip for example? If you succeed as 1st attack, you can do benefit for all the following attacks, and your friends can benefit too, and finally the tripped character provokes AoOs from every adjacent foe when standing up. Wouldn't it be more balanced if you could attempt a trip only 1/round and you had to forgo all your extra attacks?