Specialist Class: The Collector

[EP]

Before putting this out there in any "official" capacity, just wanted to post this here and get some feedback before going any further with it.

We're working on a project called "Break & Enter" dealing with stealth in 4e games and one of the biggest issues tackled are skill checks - specifically, untrained skill checks. While my co-author, Tim Rose, has been dealing with additional skill uses and options to the aid another action to give untrained characters a boost (or a means to keep up to the rest of the party), I had thought of designing a class with the ability to do something similar. However, it soon became apparent that this class was too much like the rogue but still had class features which could definitely pull off what we were going for. So I came up with the idea of a specialist class.

Specialists class can be combined with multiple classes, including multiclass and hybrid characters. There are no feats or feat taxes required, simply a couple of prerequisites related to skill training (and any others depending on other designs down the road should this work out). You can specialize in one specialist class at a time and simply swap out at least one class feature from your primary class for a specialist class feature. From that point on, you can pick and choose powers from your primary and specialist classes. You don't gain additional powers - you can choose from a wider selection.

For the initial demo, we have the collector specialist class. As a controller/leader, the collector excels at speed (he gains +1 to speed per tier) and stealth (remains concealed so long as he was concealed prior to moving). More importantly, he collects objects called icons and endows them with skill-based abilities in addition to using them as implements. These tokens can then be passed on to allies to allow them to treat certain skills as trained skills for as long as they possess the token or he can keep them for himself and gain a bonus to the skill check. Finally, the collector has a pool of points known as tokens gained through performing certain deeds (rolling a 20 on a skill check, dropping a target to 0 hp, etc.). A large majority of collector powers allow him to spend tokens and inflict additional conditions.

The collector also has adapt powers which can convert at-will or encounter powers to encounter or daily attacks should the player wish. Adapt powers are marked by their own keyword and each have the prerequisite of another at-will or encounter power (each clearly marked on the individual power). By using the adapt version of a power, you do not expend the regular power so if you used an adapt daily on an existing encounter power, you still retain the use of the original encounter power.

What I'm looking for is some feedback for the following:

- Does the concept of the specialist class work and would you use it or be inclined to use it?
- Are there any pieces of the specialist class that don't make any sense? Mainly, I want to make sure that it is as clear to others as it is to me. Is there anything else a specialist class could offer to make it a viable option for your character?
- Feedback on the collector features and powers.

And now for the incentive. First off, anyone who contributes constructive criticism to this thread will get playtester credit on Break & Enter. Second, I'm giving away free copies of the upcoming B&E to any participants here. Five copies, to be exact, randomly drawn by me prior to the release.

So please enjoy and let me know what you think. The fate of the entire project rests on YOU!! (Nah, not really, but it would be nice not to scrap this idea cause I used a lot of company resources at work to pull it off...)

 

[EP]

Why It's Not a Multiclass or Hybrid

As this seems the likeliest first question, figured I'd answer it now.

I chose not to use the collector as a multiclass option because I'm not a fan of how it works. Specifically, spending feats to gain it. I play a barbarian/druid and the idea of spending a feat to SWAP powers doesn't sit well with me. In fact, the beast warrior paragon path from CA14 was created for my character so that I could have some at-will attacks in my beast form (and I looked at paragon multiclassing but couldn't find any dailies that would work for me). And for a hybrid to work, there would have to be a fully detailed collector core class and the collector didn't seem to work as its own class.

However, that's not to say those options are entirely ruled out. By all means, plead your case if you feel a multiclass option would work best. It just seems unlikely as I have yet to find anyone here who would rally behind them.

 

[Amaroq]

First reaction: the "token" system feels like additional bookkeeping that doesn't add to the "fun".

Considered reaction: vastly vastly overpowered. Needs to be toned down throughout and heavily playtested over multiple base classes, levels, and encounters.

Specific points:

Distracting Noise - the Attack line needs to be finalized.

Master of Darkness - is that overpowered? In a dim light area, its essentially "spend a Minor, gain +5 to all defenses until somebody turns on the lights." I'd suggest at a minimum "making an attack ends" .. probably also "moving more than half your speed ends" .. and even then I'd possibly downgrade to "concealment" and toss something out there that upgrades it to "total concealment" at a higher level.

All four of the Level-1 At-Wills feel grossly overpowered to me:

From the Shadows - really? 1[W] + Strength + 1d10 damage .. as an At-Will? That's better than my L11 Fighter is doing with his encounter powers .. and having his Wisdom as the attack roll doesn't hurt too much; he's buffed Wisdom due to his Combat Challenge class feature. Remember you're letting *anybody* into this class; it feels like you've balanced the At-Will damage to the best Striker at-wills despite your stated goal for the Collector to be a Leader/Controller.

Slash and Run - is more powerful that Twin Strikes, as I get to add Wisdom mod to the first attack, shift, and apply my usual Strength or Dex bonus to the second attack. "Shift your speed" alone is terribly overpowered as a Level-1 At-Will: it is not granted until level 10 by any other power save the Warden's Daily-1 "Form of" attacks (which allow 1 use of it per day).

Bonesaw - that "my ally marks" power is really buff, especially without the distance limitations of Misdirected Mark. The 2-token line is what really makes it overpowering, though - I can deny his side an attack, and potentially damage him again, pumping this up to around a 3[W] shift in power .. and it gets a lot worse if I redirect the BBEG leader's encounter power or recharge power instead of some archer's at-will power.

Deceptive Snap - the damage is in-line .. but it vastly changes the calculus for the bad guy by making him re-roll, which makes it overpowered. The 1-token line lets you take any archer out of a fight (save ends), or extend Surprise over a melee fighter through several real rounds (save ends) as he's unable to draw his weapon. The 2-token Immobilized really ought to be removed - Immobilized is an encounter power in all other contexts.

Blindside - needs an action type .. and if I'm reading it right, needs a Trigger, too. I'm also a bit concerned about "save ends" as an encounter at Level 1 - my experience is that that mechanic is typically reserved for higher levels and dailies. I'd suggest this get reworked and/or re-leveled.

Face of Death - needs a "Make a secondary attack" line. In the secondary attack, "Hit" line, change the wording to "If the target is an enemy, the target is dazed (save ends). If the target is an ally, the target receives temporary hit points equal to your charisma modifier." .. for the "1 token" line, make it clear that it requires hitting the target and that the target is not subject to both dazed and stunned.

Behind the Veil - this one just felt odd .. I disappear from one opponent, but no others .. I can do any nasty thing I like so long as I don't target that opponent .. or move? .. Suggest attention, but I don't have a fix in mind.

Friendly Fire - sounds cool when you imagine causing a Soldier to get stuck in the back with a couple arrows .. but from a DM's perspective it would be really annoying. So, we've reached the final encounter, and .. the Collector gets all of the boss' guards and minions to gang up on the boss while the Collector's allies stay wayyy away and send in ranged fire.

Piercing Shot - the "1 token" line removes a restriction which is not applied by any rules text (though it is implied by the flavor text). As its an encounter power, I don't recommend adding that restriction.

Shadow Jump - the "2 tokens" line seems odd .. why don't I teleport myself? Its my Move action, and I'm spending my tokens to upgrade the power, not downgrade it .. and how does it interact if I spend 3 tokens to get both the 1-token and the 2-token lines?

False Fire - needs a bit of clarification. I get what you want it to do, but as some encounter powers are bursts, area effects, and two-melee-attack-multiple-target I think the text is going to need some serious re-work to get it to mean what you want it to mean.

Hidden Potential - As a DM, I absolutely hated this. I mean, what if I've built a BBEG whose signature cool-ness is an intelligent artifact .. that is now powerless (save ends)? .. What if the target *is* a magic item? .. Plus there's no indicator who picks which item for creatures with multiple items .. the flavor text implies "weapon", as does the last line, but that isn't explicit anywhere ..

Renewing Strike - I think I'd re-word this slightly. "Effect: Choose one encounter power of your weapon or daily power of your weapon. Until the start of your next turn, you can use that power as a free action." .. with similar clarifying text for "1 token" and "2 token" entries.

 

[EP]

Notes made and corrections planned. Thanks.

In my own personal playtesting of the collector (as a collector rogue), tokens worked out well. I just kept a cue card of all the deeds that would grant me a token next to my character sheet and generally received 2 tokens per session. Still, this is just my experience with one character so far (and it's my own creation, so my opinion will naturally seep in...)

 

[Amaroq]

I was guessing your playtesting had been striker-based - the at-wills I was complaining about probably felt balanced when compared with the other rogue/striker damages. (In fact, I didn't spot problems with them until I decided to come at it with my evil-PC-of-exploits hat on.)

The amount of fun the "token" system is is probably going to depend on the player, actually. I know I've got one girl in my group who would absolutely love and dive into it, and another who would simply skip the class as soon as she saw any extra bookkeeping.

So, up to you if that's a downside or not.

I know I gave you mostly criticism, but I actually quite enjoyed the character concept - and a lot of the powers, even ones I had notes about. It makes a very "Indiana Jones" flavored character, and I can see it being really fun to play. In general, I'd solve my "overpowered" complaints simply by pushing things up a level or six, and/or bumping some at-wills to Encounters and encounters to Dailies, and/or by downgrading the objectionable component - rather than by ditching the power entirely. They're good power concepts!

 

[EP]

Tokens are optional - it's possible to play a collector without using them and simply selecting another class feature instead. But I know the monk will use a point system for its powers and figured since the door's already been opened, might as well prop it open with a stick.

Thanks for the comps. I have a bad habit of always making things overpowered at first then bring them back down. My initial concern for now was the entire concept of the specialist class as I have a couple others in the pipe for CA (including one for issue #16 in March).

 

[the Jester]

First of all, I haven't read your document- I tend not to bother with linked files and stuff, if it isn't actually posted here I gloss by it. But speaking to the whole concept of the specialist class, it sounds like you want a multiclass without having to pay for it (in fact, you state that pretty explicitly), and that makes it more powerful than regular multiclassing on its face (look ma, I saved several feats!).

Based on that alone, I'd say you need to rethink your entry requirements.

 

[EP]

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