Specify attack method? How strict

[Dredly]

A few seconds that amount to multiple turns?
Wow, your players are FAST.
Or, you know, that's not actually true.

You didn't ask for a RAW. You asked for a "what would you have done?" and you attempted to paint this other player as the bad guy:



This indicates that you were in fact looking for validation, because you've been having a nagging feeling that perhaps you made the wrong choice, and you were in fact in the wrong.



This post (c) Kingreaper: You accused me of psychoanalysis. The above is psychoanalysis, my previous posts were advice and criticism.

Should I have specified a few mobs turns? if you want me to be exact I can if it would help, 3 goblin cutters and a goblin warrior attacked, all missed.... 2 players attacked and landed hits on cutters, then it was his turn again,at this point he said screw it I'll stay asleep, we all laughed, he rolled for the hell of it and it was a 1.

I was looking for Validation through a rule. I'm a new GM and typically just go with the whatever the players say as long as it isn't to far against the rules. I just wanted to confirm I had ruled correctly (legit)

 

[Dredly]

I kind of agree with the OP.

As DM, I spend 1 to 5 hours on each of my games each week and two of my players (one of whom is my wife) cannot be bothered to learn simple rules like it takes a minor action to pull out a weapon (or cannot be bothered to post their exact actions in a PBP game).

I think people do not learn with honey over vinegar, they just like it better. A few tastes of vinegar does get their attention more than the honey though.

I will typically point out when someone is about to make an obvious mistake if I get the chance, but if a problem player picks up the dice, declares his legal actions, and rolls right away, them's the breaks as far as I'm concerned.

I had a bunch of PCs climbing ropes and they got into an encounter and as they rushed forward, I said "you need to use a minor action to pull out your weapon". So, they moved in (move), pulled weapon (minor), and attacked (standard). That same round when the monsters attacked, one hit because one of the PCs did not yet have out her shield and she said "I wouldn't have gone into the room without putting my shield on first" and I replied "but you did, we are not going back to change it". She got a tiny bit pissy about it for a second, but was then laughing and enjoying herself a few minutes later. It really depends on your players, but it's not the DM's reponsibility to always cave in and it's not the player's rights to always be entitled.

I think players should take responsibility for knowing the rules and their own PC's abilities, and the DM shouldn't be forced to hold their hands all of the time. It's one thing with a new player, but someone who has been playing the game for a while should get with the program.

Thank you, this is exactly my thought process as well. I spent the entire day Friday and most of my free time all week doing DM related stuff (learning MapTools and building the maps). easily 20+ hours this week went into this.

The Player in question was SUPPOSED to be the DM for this party but he was "to busy" to bother reading the new rule books for 4e or to prep at all, so it fell to me. Our first session with him as DM was a mess with init orders all over the place, huge delays because he didn't read the campaign... etc

Since I've been DMing (6 sessions now?) I've always had my stuff prepped in advance, always ensured everything was good to go and everyone was having a good time but instead of playing the game he was nit-picking and arguing rulings the whole time.

So yep, I was looking for vindication / RAW on whether it was against the rules, its not and actually its directly in line with the rules so I'm good, thanks

 

[Artoomis]

As a DM is it my responsibility to tell them what weapon they are attacking with? I have to keep track of a bunch of mobs, they have to keep track of 1 player...

You asked, "what would you have done? let him slide? hit him with the OA? ask him to specify what he is doing?"

I answered.

To answer your next question above, "As a DM is it my responsibility to tell them what weapon they are attacking with?," the answer is you already are doing so if you are going to take an OA based upon what weapon the he/she is holding. In this case, you really should give fair warning before talking the OA. It's all about getting along well in a group and making the game cooperative, not competitive.

I have played in all kinds of games in my 35 years of playing (that's a long time! ) and the least fun was when I felt like the DM would be a jerk and make it feel like the DM and players were in competition.

Remember, you asked!

Certainly, from a strict rules perspective, you were correct, but 4e is really supposed to be cooperative between DM and players. Playing "gotcha" with players is not how 4e was designed, though it can be played that way if that's what the group thinks is fun.

 

[KarinsDad]

I have played in all kinds of games in my 35 years of playing (that's a long time! ) and the least fun was when I felt like the DM would be a jerk and make it feel like the DM and players were in competition.

Remember, you asked!

Certainly, from a strict rules perspective, you were correct, but 4e is really supposed to be cooperative between DM and players. Playing "gotcha" with players is not how 4e was designed, though it can be played that way if that's what the group thinks is fun.

I'm not sure that the DM was playing gotcha and being a jerk in this case. You seem to be giving the benefit of the doubt to the player and not the DM.

I think 4E is cooperative, but I also think that some players take advantage of DMs. They become lazy or complacent or even feel that they are entitled. I do think that players should be paying attention and should know the rules, and every once in a while, a DM should hit a problem player with the "DM is God" bat.

Not often, just when the player is being a weenie or a whiner as in the example the OP gave.

And in the example he gave, he hardly touched the player with the "DM is God" bat. A single OA is nothing compared to what a DM can do. In this case, some players would go "Doh!, my bad" and others start an argument with the DM instead of sucking it up and paying attention in the future.

The game should be cooperative, but that means that it is not just the DM that has to cooperate, it's also the players. There is a social contract that the DM tries to present a fair and impartial and fun game, and the players do their part to help out with that as well (be on time, be prepared, know your PC, don't argue with the DM over something as trivial as an OA, don't shout out jokes while the Villain is delivering the serious soliloquy that the DM spent an hour drafting , etc.). This player did not sound cooperative, especially earlier on in the evening, so he was not necessarily undeserving of an OA (given what little information we know).

However, there are more subtle ways to deal with a problem player, starting with magic item distribution.

 

[illwizard]

I was playing in a group (not Dming) with a fellow player, who never really had any desire to learn the rules proper, and the DM often let small things slide, like the OP's problem and eventually larger things, like the fact he never really even knew his attack bonuses and just used to add what he thought would hit to the d20 roll. I think the player often got away with it because he was such a good roleplayer and a good friend of the DM.

But you know, I've got to have fun too, and this sort of character and rules knowledge, isn't hard to figure out and if you ignore some basic things like this, it can end up spiraling a bit.

 

[MarkB]

he actually rolled so low I couldn't possibly make it a win, his first roll was like a 2, then he was like screw it I'll just sleep through and rolled a 1 anyway.

What's with this "rolled" business? He's asleep and can't make active checks, so you're using his Passive Perception value. Given that sounds of battle are DC 0 to detect, and being asleep gives a -5 penalty, even a 1st-level character would need a Wisdom score (not modifier) of -1 in order to fail that check.

 

[Mengu]

In my games, I have to keep track of what my players have in their hands at all times, and what conditions they are inflicted by, because half the time they declare actions without realizing if what they are trying to do is possible or not, so you'll often hear me say things like:

"You're going to open the door with what? Your mouth?"

"You're going to Eldritch Blast, you know you have two orcs with big axes next to you right?"

"So with your third arm and third minor action you pull out a potion and administer it as what, a free action?"

"Kay, you quarry him, your turn ends. Next person is... Oh you want to change your action now you remember you're dazed?"

The DM has to be aware of a lot. I have to know the rules for all the PC's. I have to keep track of whether they have used their immediate action in a turn or not. I have to keep track of their status, remind them of ongoing damage, remind them to make saves at the end of their turn. In a similar fashion, I need someone on their team to keep me honest. I might forget that a zombie was hit by Dire Radiance, and move them toward the warlock. I might forget that the Sorcerer hit a goblin with burning spray last turn, and attack her with the goblin. So the PC's need to remind me of these things. It takes mutual effort to run a game without missing any rules. And even then, we sometimes forget stuff, and at the end of the game realize something that happened shouldn't have happened, but we don't worry about it too much and make a note to pay attention to it next time.

 

[MrMyth]

yeah I know, the group got ambushed, only one person woke up and immediately he started complaining that he should be awake right away because one player woke up, everyone else woke up on their turn, he failed the wake up check and then started complaining more, the battle was over in 3 turns, so he just slept through it. Overall it was pretty amusing

Keep in mind that 'amusing' for you = 'a bunch of time sitting around, not able to do anything, and not able to play the game with his friends' for him. Look, it is your group and your friends, and so maybe it really all went just fine, but still seems like a situation best avoided (or run properly) in the future. But that is just my advice.

As for the attack question - was he also wielding a melee weapon? (Perhaps had a hand-crossbow in one hand and a dagger in the other?) If yes, then it should be assumed he was attacking in melee. If not, then he would have needed to declare he was switching weapons, and it was reasonable for you to take the Opportunity Attack - though personally, I'd usually remind him first that it would provoke and see if that changes his action. But that is just my style of play, and I can definitely see how the occasional bit of legitimate punishment will remind PCs to keep more track of things in the future.

 

[Fanaelialae]

In my group, the DM reminds the players and vice-versa. If the DM is about to provoke a combat challenge from the fighter, the fighter gives fair warning and the DM has a chance to rethink his action. Same if a player provokes an opportunity attack from the DM.

There's a lot that goes on in 4e, and it can be challenging to keep track of everything (particularly if someone's having an "off" day). Cooperation between the DM and players makes the game more enjoyable and makes tracking much easier.

 

[eamon]

I'm not sure that the DM was playing gotcha and being a jerk in this case. You seem to be giving the benefit of the doubt to the player and not the DM.

I think 4E is cooperative, but I also think that some players take advantage of DMs. They become lazy or complacent or even feel that they are entitled. I do think that players should be paying attention and should know the rules, and every once in a while, a DM should hit a problem player with the "DM is God" bat.

There's obviously some sense to that. Still, I think it depends somewhat on the group - and this just won't work for some. In both I play in, the "problem" players play purely for fun; their mistakes are definitely honest (if occasionally frustrating). Telling em off won't work (tried that): what happens is simply that they still make mistakes, but that these mistakes sometimes cost the party dearly. The players in question may be annoyed by their mistake, but they don't really improve.

So, what to do - punish the whole group for an outliers' fuzzy translation between intent and mechanics, or simply let it slide?

Nobody can blame you for occasionally venting and being a bit pedantic when it crops up (and for players that 'll ever get things figured out) - but I'm sure things would be a lot less smooth-going if everyone that fails to mention when they take a shield on or off gets smashed for it.

In any case, this thread is a bit off-topic...

On the topic of the rules, you can't make a melee attack with a melee weapon that you aren't wielding. The "correct" ruling isn't that the attack provokes, it's that the entire situation doesn't make sense and can't occur. You can rule that he used his ranged weapon - even though that obviously wasn't the intent, perhaps in some situations that's a fair punishment - and then he'd provoke, but that's definitely not somehow "correct" in the sense of necessarily following from the rules.