Spell Expansion...

[kreynolds]

Nah. Even if they're tougher than hell, basic physics...

Nah. It's D&D physics. Seriously, I'm not interested in complicating the game, but like I said, I do understand where you're coming from.

 

[kreynolds]

Sub-zero Nova: For a 6th level spell, 15d6 seems like a low cap. Disintegrate, while not being a spell to base others off of, has a 20d6 cap.

15d6 is the standard cap for multi-target 6th-level arcane spells, while 20d6 is the standard cap for single-target 6th-level arcane spells. See page 36 of the DMG.

The stagger effect is nice which may mitigate the low damage somewhat, but it seems like an awkward spell to use effectively. I mean, even in diablo it could be dicey because you had to get in there to affect the enemy.

True, but it happened to be inspired by a rather hardy fighter/sorcerer, who was quite effective at charging into the fray and blasting the badies with it. It's no doubt suited to a small group of spellcasters.

Fireball II: Seems decent. One small thing I'd like to point out is that while you speak of it like it is merely maximized, it is in fact heightened and maximized, plus you added an additional effect.

I don't need to mention the heightened effect. It's represented by the increased spell level.

Fireball III: This spell will deal 70 points of damage on average, which is only 10 points higher than Fireball II. I would consider enhancing the radius or raising the die type to d8 (if youre into that kind of thing).

Hmm. I hadn't noticed that. Thanks for pointing it out. I'll take a look at my notes and see what I have to work with.

I don't consider myself much of an authority on epic spells, so I won't comment.

Yeah, I just figured out what appears to be a really simple and rather accurate way of converting an epic spell to spells above 10th-level. This is a tryout, albeit but the first.

I like these spells but I find Fireball III to be weak and Fireball II and C. Fireball to be on the strong side (according to how metamagic affects spells).

In regards to how metamagic affects spells, and C. Fireball and Fireball II seeming strong, one of the things you have to keep in mind is that just about every single metamagic feat overshoots the spell level just a bit to compensate for its convenience. In other words, spells with metamagic feats applied, and their levels raised by those feats, are never rounded out in regards to their effects and their new spell levels as most other spells are. Basically, an empowered spell isn't _really_ two levels higher than normal. If you actually just design a spell from scratch and just include the empowered effect, you end up with a little breathing room for some fine tuning.

 

[kreynolds]

Shouldn't Greater Subzero Nova be a save DC of 25+mod, being a 15th level spell and all?

Actually, you bring up a good point. Ignore all the Save DCs until I've had a chance to check them. They're probably hang-overs from an older revision. In other words, I forgot to update them.

Also, I wouldn't let Subzero or its greater version stagger if they make their save.

Interesting. Let me chew on that.

I agree that FB III seems a bit weak... I doubt I would cast it when I could throw another FB2. The avg damage of a max FBIII is 70, so you aren't jumping too much in the power department.

Yeah, I gotta take care of that.

Concussive FB and Epic FB are both cool, but I think there needs to be some modifier for size as to the range which someone moves. Perhaps every size diff from med is a + or - 10 feet max? Ie a Large creature 10 from the edge of the spell wouldn't move, but if it were centered on him he would move 30'.

Nah. As I mentioned above, I don't wanna introduce an aspect of physics into D&D if it isn't already there.

I'll take a look at the other spells though. Thanks for the input!

 

[Kerrick]

They're overrated, frankly. Not only are they variants on one of the most overused spells in D&D, but most of them are rated too high a level for the effect they produce. Greater subzero nova should be an 8th-level spell at best. Fireball II/III are nothing more than fireball cast with a feat from Arcane Strife called Spell Tackle - any damage spell you cast has a chance to knock the target down. Level adjustment: +1. We have a spell similar to epic fireball; it deals force damage, covers a 50-ft. spread, and is 9th level.

By way of comparison, hellball, from the ELH, is a 15th level spell. It deals 10d6 each of fire, acid, electricity, and sonic in a 40-ft. radius. IOW, it's a multi-use spell that will affect just about anything out there to some degree, energy resistance/immunity notwithstanding.

Sub-zero Nova: For a 6th level spell, 15d6 seems like a low cap. Disintegrate, while not being a spell to base others off of, has a 20d6 cap.

You're right. If you extend the table, a 16th-level spell would have a 45d6 cap, not 40. Distintegrate has a 40d6 cap.

And the entire POINT of spells is to complicate the game. Considering how limited the ammunition supply of a mage is, they'd BETTER be complicated: Otherwise, it becomes pedestrian and boring. If I wanted attack and do damage in a bland and boring manner, I'd have been a damn fighter.

Amen, brother. Fireball variants are tired and boring - I want to see something NEW, something that rips the target's skeleton from its still-living body and makes it dance at the caster's command, or raises a cross of infernal iron from the ground and impales the target to it (both of which, incidentally, are spells we've come up with).

And for anyone who wants to see a real 15th-level fireball variant...

From the Ashes
Evocation [Fire]
Spell Level: 15
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 free action
Range: 0 ft.
Area: 20-ft. radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None or Reflex half (see below)
Spell Resistance: No or Yes (see below)
This spell is often used as a last-ditch effort, when the caster is surrounded and things look grim; it can only be cast if the caster is at 10 hit points or lower. It creates a 20d6 fireball, centered on the caster; all creatures in the area of effect may make Reflex saves as normal for half damage (but the caster is considered to have voluntarily failed). Immediately afterward, the flames sweep back toward the epicenter and up into a huge flaming phoenix, and the caster is resurrected, as per the spell. If for some reason he is immune to fire or does not take enough damage to reduce him to -10 hp (due to resistance), the second part of the spell does not take effect.

Note: This spell was created using a system similar to that in the ELH, but converted to levels, which is why it says "Spell level." I haven't included the mechanics for the creation of the spell, because they're still undergoing testing. While the resurrection effect breaks the rule about arcane casters being able to cast spells like that, it only takes effect if the caster kills himself first, which (IMO) balances it out.

 

[Nifft]

Nah. Even if they're tougher than hell, basic physics would send them flying anyway. They'd just end up like those movie characters which are somehow impervious to death from being hurled through windows by fiery explosions, suffering only minor or no injury.

"Jumping". Explosions, train wrecks, planetary detonation: nothing can injure you if you're in the air when it happens.

The traditional handwave IMC is that a Fireball isn't an explosion. It's a spell that causes elemental Fire to briefly visit a tiny portion of the Prime. IMC, it makes a "foosh" sound.

Teleports -- those are loud. Fireballs are soft.

 

[kreynolds]

Fireball II/III are nothing more than fireball cast with a feat from Arcane Strife called Spell Tackle - any damage spell you cast has a chance to knock the target down. Level adjustment: +1.

Not the feat I used as a reference, and it was a higher adjustment than +1 (which I think is too low).

By way of comparison, hellball, from the ELH, is a 15th level spell.

16th, IMO.

If you extend the table, a 16th-level spell would have a 45d6 cap, not 40.

No. A 16th-level arcane spell has a 45 dice cap for single creature spells only. Multiple-target 16th-level arcane spells have a cap of 40 dice.

Distintegrate has a 40d6 cap.

It's also a conversion from an instant-kill spell, so it's a clear exception to the norm. This is evident by the fact that you don't take half of 40d6 points of damage on a successful save. It's an irrelevant comparison.

And for anyone who wants to see a real 15th-level fireball variant...

Interesting spell, though the resurrection part isn't my cup of tea for an arcane spell. Other than that, I think it makes a really cool divine spell.

 

[kreynolds]

Hey everybody. Here's the story behind the save DCs; They're based on a house rule I'm going to be testing out, instead of using the ELH's recommendation. The ELH says that epic spells have a save DC of 20 + caster modifier, since they're treated as epic spells, but I'm gonna try 15 + half caster level + caster modifier. Feels more fluid.

 

[Norfleet]

"Jumping". Explosions, train wrecks, planetary detonation: nothing can injure you if you're in the air when it happens.

The traditional handwave IMC is that a Fireball isn't an explosion. It's a spell that causes elemental Fire to briefly visit a tiny portion of the Prime. IMC, it makes a "foosh" sound.

Teleports -- those are loud. Fireballs are soft.

That happens to be the Officially Sanctioned Handwave also, as evidenced by the descriptions involving lack of pressure, and soforth.

Unfortunately, it also doesn't produce the effect I want, so I see an unfilled niche here: Explosions. Spells that create real, honest-to-god EXPLOSIONS, not merely puffs of flame which, on the outset, look like explosions, but are to explosions what decaf is to coffee.

And, as everyone knows, drinking decaf is like dating a nun: You're not going to get what you want, so why bother?

 

[Kerrick]

Originally Posted by Kerrick
Fireball II/III are nothing more than fireball cast with a feat from Arcane Strife called Spell Tackle - any damage spell you cast has a chance to knock the target down. Level adjustment: +1.

Not the feat I used as a reference, and it was a higher adjustment than +1 (which I think is too low).

Moot point, since the feat's not in there anyway - I thought it was.

Originally Posted by Kerrick
By way of comparison, hellball, from the ELH, is a 15th level spell.

16th, IMO.

If you go by the conversion from Spellcraft to level (divide by 10, round down, and add 7), it comes out to 15. *shrug*

No. A 16th-level arcane spell has a 45 dice cap for single creature spells only. Multiple-target 16th-level arcane spells have a cap of 40 dice.

Ah, you're right - I was looking at the wrong column.

Interesting spell, though the resurrection part isn't my cup of tea for an arcane spell. Other than that, I think it makes a really cool divine spell.

Yeah, I'm trying to justify that part myself, since even with epic spells, arcane casters can't do resurrection effects. It's not just an arcane spell, though; might have it enchanted into gems.

That happens to be the Officially Sanctioned Handwave also, as evidenced by the descriptions involving lack of pressure, and soforth.

Unfortunately, it also doesn't produce the effect I want, so I see an unfilled niche here: Explosions. Spells that create real, honest-to-god EXPLOSIONS, not merely puffs of flame which, on the outset, look like explosions, but are to explosions what decaf is to coffee.

Yes, we all know a real explosion creates a wave of force that'll blow you
back if the explosion's big enough and you're close enough. The reason they didn't include it is because 1) it requires more rules adjudication; 2) it overly complicates the game; and 3) it could be subject to serious abuse on both the players' and the DM's parts (course, so can any spell, but that's beside the point).

The rules part is the biggest one - smaller creatures get blown back further than larger ones, so if you have a Small gnome 10 feet from the blast, a Medium human 15 feet away, his Tiny familiar 5 feet away, and the Large ogre (who's the target of the spell) at ground zero, the DM has to stop the game while he figures out how far each one would get knocked back (assuming they fail their Reflex saves), which way, and what other effects would happen - say, that desk next to the ogre vaporized into a shower of splinters and - oh look - the gnome now has enough wood in him to qualify as furniture himself. An inexperienced or sadistic DM could easily slaughter or maim a party badly with spells like this; I could already see the disputes around the table about "He didn't get blown back that far (or far enough)! He's supposed to go THIS far!"

Additional effects are all well and good, but they shouldn't be part of the rules - they should be adjudicated by the DM on a case-by-case basis. For example, we're playing a Night of the Living Dead rerun in our Modern game. A cop car blew up nearby, and about half the party failed their Reflex saves. Fortunately, we were in a room nearby, so we missed most of the explosion, but the cop's tonfa (which was sitting on the front seat) blew through the window and smashed one guy in the mouth, the grill blew through the open door and hit someone else in the chest, and some shrapnel hit the people who had made their saves. OUr DM has also been doing this for nearly 20 years, so we trust him to be fair about such things.

 

[Staffan]

That happens to be the Officially Sanctioned Handwave also, as evidenced by the descriptions involving lack of pressure, and soforth.

Well, I think the official handwave is that it creates elemental fire rather than brings some from the Elemental planes. That's why it's Evocation and not Conjuration.