Spell Focus - too weak now?

[Legildur]

Multiple post - sorry all.

 

[Legildur]

Multiple post - sorry all.

 

[Kalanyr]

I agree that a net +4 for 2 feats was too extreme (had a monk/evoker once with nice fireball saves). *snip*

The dreaded Octuple post!

And more on topic:

The Lightning Reflexes feat boosts saves against pretty much the entire school of Evocation and chunks of Conjuration and Transmutation by +2 as well as helping against breath weapons and traps. Spell focus (Evocation) boosts the saves for Evocation alone, looks to me like the new Spell Focus feat is really weak.

Am I the only one who thinks a spellcaster should be able to have a decent chance of effecting an enemy with his limited times per day attacks?

 

[ForceUser]

The dreaded Octuple post!

And more on topic:

The Lightning Reflexes feat boosts saves against pretty much the entire school of Evocation and chunks of Conjuration and Transmutation by +2 as well as helping against breath weapons and traps. Spell focus (Evocation) boosts the saves for Evocation alone, looks to me like the new Spell Focus feat is really weak.

Am I the only one who thinks a spellcaster should be able to have a decent chance of effecting an enemy with his limited times per day attacks?

A caster's Int, WIs, or Cha modifier will significantly boost the save DC of the spell. Take a fireball, add in a conservative +4 stat modifier, add in Greater Spell Focus v.3.5, and you've got a 19 save DC. Sure, rogues and monks will make their Reflex saves - that's what they do. Everyone else is taking it on the chin. My 14th level cleric, who has Lightning Reflexes, will make a DC 19 Reflex save a little less than half the time. Fighters, wizards, druids, barbarians, paladins, sorcerers, and similar prestige classes are in the same boat. And that's just a measely fireball. Make that a prismatic spray with a (again, conservative for the level) +6 stat modifier and you're talking a 25 save DC! Those are the sorts of DCs a 14th-level cleric faces, so now we're talking less than a 1-in-4 chance for my character to make that save under 3.5 rules. In 3.0 he'd basically have to roll the 20 to save against the same spell!

So no, it's not weak in 3.5. Please put down the crack pipe.

 

[LordAO]

Too weak.

I never even thought the old spell focus was worth it. The new one is next to worthless.

And as far as Spell focus somehow being better than the save increasing feats - get real. It would be one thing if spell focus increased all your save dcs. But it doesn't. Only for one school. And saving throws apply to alot of things other than just magic. You people need to remember that too.

And while a character can boost his spellcasting stat pretty easy with items and levels, it isn't exactly hard to boost your save DCs. One cloak of resistance +5 will give you a save bonus that it will take a spellcaster 10 points in his primary attribute to match. And while you need to boost three attributes to improve all your saving throws, consider this: three +2 stat boosting items is far cheaper than a single +6 booster item, and gives you all around coverage.

And unlike save dcs, saving throws improve as your level goes up. By level 20, even a weak save gets a +6 bonus, which isn't too shabby.

Let's compare some things at 20th level.

Let's say your spellcaster started with a 16 in his primary attribute (which is 1 above average). Let's also assume he put all his level up points into it, giving him a 21. With a +6 stat boosting item, he can have a 27 (for a +8 bonus).

Let's also assume he took spell focus. This makes his save DCs for his favorite school 19 + spell level.

Ok, now for our saving throw man. His strongest save will be 12 and his weakest save will be 6 (assuming no multiclassing or monks). We'll assume he has a 14 in those attributes (not too hard to do by level 20). This brings his base save up to 8. Now, with a +5 cloak of resistence, he has a 13 (A +5 cloak of resistance is only 25,000 gold, BTW, and improves ALL saving throws). With a +2 stat boosting item he has a 14.

Now remember, it appears that he is way behind, but you add a D20 to this. The average he will roll is 10-11, allowing him to resist the mage's favorite spells of 6th and 7th level, on an AVERAGE roll, with his WEAKEST saving throw. On his good save, the mage may as well pack up and go home.

Now, you could say that I could power up the mage more, have him start with an 18 attribute, give him spellcasting prodigy, and a +5 inherant bonus from wishing, but that would make a total of a 5 point difference and is about as extreme "munchkin" a mage can get in 3.5 edition.

But I didn't make my saving throw character anywhere near as good as I could have either. I could give him much better stat boosting items, give him inherant bonuses (or assumed his attributes were higher, etc), make him a Paladin or Monk, etc.

All in all, after getting rid of the Red Wizard and Arch Mage save DC monstrosities, saving throws are balanced if not ahead of spellcasting much of the time. Spell Focus' +1 is simply not a significant enough of a boost to make much of a difference, especially considering that it only applies to 1/8th of a Wizard's spells.

 

[Dash Dannigan]

I've been considering changing SF & GSF to add +1 vs spell resistance in addition to the +1 for spell DCs. Of course coupled with the Spell Pen feats it will be alot easier for the caster to beat spell resist, but then again the extra bonus vs spell resist would be for only that specialist school. Makes sense. Opinions?

 

[LordAO]

I've been considering changing SF & GSF to add +1 vs spell resistance in addition to the +1 for spell DCs. Of course coupled with the Spell Pen feats it will be alot easier for the caster to beat spell resist, but then again the extra bonus vs spell resist would be for only that specialist school. Makes sense. Opinions?

I'd give it a +1 caster level with that school, as well as the + to save DCs. That way a focused character can improve the range, area, effect of his school's spells, have an easier time overcoming SR, etc.

This would make the feat more worthwhile and balanced while not sending people into a fit over "too high" of Save DCs.

 

[Marimmar]

Maybe we should take a look at spell focus from different perspective. Compare it to the fighting man's weapon focus feat. This feat allows you to attack at a mere +1 bonus with a single weapon and I haven't seen anyone complaining about that. I'd say the reduction of spell focus to a mere +1 bonus is okay. Not okay though is that spell casting prodigy now is clearly superior.

The problem with spell focus's nerfing is that many a wizard player is just out for the most powerful class and looks for superiority over his fellow players. Thus is any reduction in power seen as a personal affront and the protests are loud. Some wizards excelled at everything and made it very boring for the other players since mr superman wizard could fly, spy, fight and hide better than anyone else.

Just MHO
~Marimmar

 

[The Little Raven]

Maybe we should take a look at spell focus from different perspective. Compare it to the fighting man's weapon focus feat. This feat allows you to attack at a mere +1 bonus with a single weapon and I haven't seen anyone complaining about that. I'd say the reduction of spell focus to a mere +1 bonus is okay. Not okay though is that spell casting prodigy now is clearly superior.*snip*

Very true. A +1 DC to ALL spells, plus an additional bonus spell (or more) from having a high ability score... for a feat with no prerequisite, but can only be taken at 1st-level.

Hmmm.

 

[Darklone]

Spell Casting Prodigy is not core?

Wait till you see the nerfed 3.5 version.