Spell it out for me: Sneak Attack

[Kae'Yoss]

(at -20, since he's moving and attacking) opposed by the victim's Spot/Listen check.

Well, he isn't attacking until he attacks.

What I want to say: He's moving up to the enemy (not running or charging), without any penalty. As soon as he attacks, he gets the -20, but for that attack, that doesn't matter, for the sword is already swinging towards the enemy's vitals. But after that attack, he's visible (unless he has another move action and hides again, with the mentioned -20)

... even though you're feinting from 100 feet away

This is accomplished with a mage hand that taps the enemy on one shoulder.

 

[Pielorinho]

Great summary, Beauniddle, with only one clarification:

3) special case - on multiple blows from a single attack roll (3.0 shurikens, multiple elemental orbs, possibly Manyshot) you only apply sneak attack to the first projectile.

Shouldn't roll be action? My understanding is that with elemental orbs, you take a single attack action but make multiple attack rolls.

Daniel

 

[Pbartender]

Yes definitely a difference of opinion on those passages regarding when the -20 applies, but thats why were discussing this.

My gaming group uses the -20 when you don't have to move (target moves within an area you threaten while hiding) or when sniping (ranged attack and hide again).

In our games, characters without the HiPS special ability normally can't leap out and attack and still be hiding because of the "You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check." (PHB - pg.76) requirement listed in the description of the hide skill. If they no longer have cover or concealment they can't even attempt to hide. However, other PCs engaging a foe (or other enemies in the melee) can provide cover, and thats what the sneaky PCs in our group wait for before moving in to attack. If a PC/or other oppopnent is between the target and our sneaky friend, they provide our sneaky friend cover and he can then attempt to hide wrt the target, at -20 + other penalties depnding on how he moves. IMO this is how the rules as written work, but I've been wrong before

Hadn't really thought about it that way, but it certainly makes sense. I was looking at it in two (maybe three) other different ways...

1. A rogue is in hiding, while a group of orcs walk by. He waits until they pass, and decides to pop out and sneak attack the last one. He takes a five foot step out of concealment (assume he succeeds at the 'normal' Hide/Move Silently checks, so none of the orcs notice him), makes his full sneak attack killing the orc. During the attack, he must make another Hide/Move Silently check at a -20 penalty or the other orcs notice him. If he succeeds at that extraordinary feat, they don't know he's there, even after he's killed their buddy. He can try to sneak attack another, or go back into hiding.

2. A confusing melee. The rogue had been hiding, but came out to attack an enemy. The other enemies are busy fighting the other heroes, and so don't have much attention to spare looking watching the rogue (in other words, only the rogue's direct melee opponent is 'observing' him). Assuming he can make that Hide/Move Silently check at -20, he can remain out of the notice of the other preoccupied enemies while attacking his personal foe (perhaps even by hiding behind the concealment his foe provides in melee). This is much like what you proposed, but it uses one enemy to hide from the other enemies, instead of using a friend to hide from all enemies.

3 (maybe). Essentially, I was thinking of this -20 modifier in the same way as the 'attacking' penalty of the standard Invisibility spell... When you attack, the invisibility stops working. In the same vein, when you attack, you are no longer hiding from anyone, unless you can make an extraordinary Hide check at a -20 penalty.

Notice that there's actually no distance limitation on sneak attacking with a melee attack.

A 3E Kraken with Rogue levels can sneak attack with a tentacle from 100 feet away, because it's not a ranged attack.

More likely, however, an Arcane Trickster can Sneak Attack with a Spectral Hand delivering a touch spell (Shocking Grasp, for example), from over 100 feet away... because a Spectral Hand is explicitly a melee touch attack.

No one's really disputed that, and it has no bearing on whether a character can Hide while attacking in melee.

Well, he isn't attacking until he attacks.

What I want to say: He's moving up to the enemy (not running or charging), without any penalty. As soon as he attacks, he gets the -20, but for that attack, that doesn't matter, for the sword is already swinging towards the enemy's vitals. But after that attack, he's visible (unless he has another move action and hides again, with the mentioned -20)

I think that's exactly what I meant to say first time (but didn't quite), and did say this time.

 

[Abraxas]

This is much like what you proposed, but it uses one enemy to hide from the other enemies, instead of using a friend to hide from all enemies.

Just a clarification - the hiding character uses PCs or NPCs as cover to hide from his target - wether or not he can hide from any other creature depends on wether or not he has cover wrt to them when moving up.

 

[Hypersmurf]

No one's really disputed that, and it has no bearing on whether a character can Hide while attacking in melee.

No, but it has plenty to do with "Please, assume that I am a total newbie and explain to me WHEN I can Sneak Attack and When I cannot."

The question that the thread is based on, remember?

Nobody had disputed it, because the point hadn't arisen. It had been pointed out that ranged attacks can only be sneak attacks within 30 feet, but it had not been pointed out that melee attacks suffer no such restriction.

-Hyp.

 

[Pbartender]

Just a clarification - the hiding character uses PCs or NPCs as cover to hide from his target - wether or not he can hide from any other creature depends on wether or not he has cover wrt to them when moving up.

Correct. Just as a tree may not provide cover to all opponents, depending on where they are standing.

No, but it has plenty to do with "Please, assume that I am a total newbie and explain to me WHEN I can Sneak Attack and When I cannot."

The question that the thread is based on, remember?

Nobody had disputed it, because the point hadn't arisen. It had been pointed out that ranged attacks can only be sneak attacks within 30 feet, but it had not been pointed out that melee attacks suffer no such restriction.

Certainly, but you brought it up in a rather out-of-context and confusing manner. You might have been better off saying...

Ranged Attacks (including spell and spell-like ranged touch attacks) may only be Sneak Attacks against opponents within 30'.

Melee Attacks and Natural Attacks can be sneak attacks so long as the opponents are with the weapon's reach, regardless of how far that reach is. Therefore, a rogue with a melee attack that miraclulously grants a reach of 60' can sneak attack opponents with that weapon from 60' away.

In addition, we might add that any spell that requires an attack roll (melee or ranged touch attacks), and deals damage can be used to Sneak Attack. Spells that provide penalties (such as Ray of Enfeeblement) cannot Sneak Attack.

Sneak Attack damage dealt by a spell is the same type as the damage type of the spell. For example, A Rogue 1/Wizard 1 that successfully Sneak Attacks with a Ray of Frost deals 1d3 cold damage + 1d6 cold damage. For spells that deal ability or level damage, the Sneak Attack damage is 'normal' negative energy damage, NOT abilty or level damage. For example, a Rogue 3/Druid 5 that successfully sneak attacks with an Poison spell deals 1d10 Constitution damage + 2d6 negative energy damage, NOT 1d10 constitution damage + 2d6 Constitution damage.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Therefore, a rogue with a melee attack that miraclulously grants a reach of 60' can sneak attack opponents with that weapon from 60' away.

A second level spell is "miraclulous"?

-Hyp.

 

[xopher]

Just a clarification - the hiding character uses PCs or NPCs as cover to hide from his target - wether or not he can hide from any other creature depends on wether or not he has cover wrt to them when moving up.

Naw, sorry. You can't use soft cover (PCs or NPCs) to hide...

Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against melee attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Hide check.

The word "melee" here is incorrect; it should be "ranged", as per the errata.

 

[Darklone]

Hmm, I can see a halfling hiding in his large buddies backpack, popping out and sneak attacking with his crossbow during combat